Chindongo sp. 'elongatus thumbi'?

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Pete B
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Chindongo sp. 'elongatus thumbi'?

Post by Pete B » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:50 pm

I was reading the profile of Metriaclima flavicauda and found this.
"The species at Thumbi West Island that could be confused (at the time of Ribbink et al.'s investigations) with M. flavicauda is scientifically undescribed and currently referred to as Chindongo sp. 'elongatus thumbi' (Konings, 2007:136)."

The Chindongo profiles do not show this undescribed species and I also thought that there were no undescribed species in this genus?

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Philippe Burnel
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Re: Chindongo sp. 'elongatus thumbi'?

Post by Philippe Burnel » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:36 pm

On my website I notice the following, from CRC 10/08/2016

Selon Konings sur Cichlid Room Companion (octobre 08, 2016), le genre comprendrait également les espèces non décrites suivantes : 'aggressive brown', 'aggressive yellow-fin', 'aggressive zebra likoma', 'aggressive zebra maleri', 'aggressive zebra mbenji', 'burrower', 'elongatus brown', 'elongatus masimbwe', 'elongatus mbenji brown', 'elongatus mozambique brown', 'elongatus mphanga', 'elongatus nkhata blue', 'elongatus nkhata brown', 'elongatus ornatus, 'elongatus ornatus tanzania', 'elongatus ruarwe', 'elongatus spot', 'elongatus thumbi', 'fuscus dwarf', 'minutus mozambique', and 'perspicax yellow breast'.Et probablement encore d'autres espèces à étudier.

Pete B
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Re: Chindongo sp. 'elongatus thumbi'?

Post by Pete B » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:49 pm

Thank you Philippe.

So my next question is why CRC show only the described species?

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Philippe Burnel
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Re: Chindongo sp. 'elongatus thumbi'?

Post by Philippe Burnel » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:51 am

Probably because there is no valid publication about others. It's just "Konings thinks that..."

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Re: Chindongo sp. 'elongatus thumbi'?

Post by Dave Schumacher » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:53 am

From the Chindongo genus profile on the CRC:
Comments: Many scientifically undescribed mbuna species have been examined morphologically, in particular the shape of the skull and the upper angle of the vomer, as well as behaviorally where the feeding behavior and feeding angle were registered. Using the diagnostic characters of the genus the following, as yet undescribed, species should be removed from Pseudotropheus and included in Chindongo: 'aggressive brown', 'aggressive yellow-fin', 'aggressive zebra likoma', 'aggressive zebra maleri', 'aggressive zebra mbenji', 'burrower', 'elongatus brown', 'elongatus masimbwe', 'elongatus mbenji brown', 'elongatus mozambique brown', 'elongatus mphanga', 'elongatus nkhata blue', 'elongatus nkhata brown', 'elongatus ornatus, 'elongatus ornatus tanzania', 'elongatus ruarwe', 'elongatus spot', 'elongatus thumbi', 'fuscus dwarf', 'minutus mozambique', and 'perspicax yellow breast'. Additional species will undoubtedly be added to this list as soon as their morphological characteristics have been examined and confirmed to be part of Chindongo.
These fish are still listed under Pseudotropheus in the species catalog here though.
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Juan Artigas
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Re: Chindongo sp. 'elongatus thumbi'?

Post by Juan Artigas » Wed May 09, 2018 5:06 pm

Correct, that is an opinion, comments is intended for that. We need some publication making the formal proposal to justify the movement
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Pete B
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Re: Chindongo sp. 'elongatus thumbi'?

Post by Pete B » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:57 pm

Juan Artigas wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 5:06 pm
Correct, that is an opinion, comments is intended for that. We need some publication making the formal proposal to justify the movement
Has there been a publication as I now see many undescribed species listed under Chindongo in the CRC profile?

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Re: Chindongo sp. 'elongatus thumbi'?

Post by Juan Artigas » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Yes correct, Tawil has now proposed many species in Chindongo, the reference is given in the Nomenclature history in the profiles.I talked with Patrick and Ad who are the Malawi / Tanganyika authorities for the CRC and both agree on these species in Chindongo. Ad has made taxonomic examinations of skulls and other morphological aspects and had already concluded their belonging in that genus.
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Re: Chindongo sp. 'elongatus thumbi'?

Post by Philippe Burnel » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:18 am

Juan, if you are speaking about the publication in RFC 177 may, 2018. It has no scientific value.
One of the first things Patrick says is that the genus Chindongo is not well diagnosed. DOes he give a new diagnosis ? No.
But he includes spc in the genus, such as the johanni group. WHy ? No idea because no reasons are given.
So this publication has no more value than the "Konings thinks that" I was speaking about previously.
Maybe Patrick is right but he gives no argument.
I was a little bit disapointed when I read the paper. Usually Patrick is better when writing, with complete argumentation.
The journal of the French Cichlid Association is not a scientific journal, not peer reviewed. The only one able to correct the articles is Patrick himself... Will he correct is own article ? The other guys change just the good french langage ( and not always). So it's no more than the publication of a local club.

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Re: Chindongo sp. 'elongatus thumbi'?

Post by Juan Artigas » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:28 pm

Philippe Burnel wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:18 am
Juan, if you are speaking about the publication in RFC 177 may, 2018. It has no scientific value.
Philippe, Sorry for the delay I have been out of town. I was actually referring to CN v. 27(n. 3), pp. 11-17. I don’t think you are suggesting that we just use name combinations present in peer reviewed journals where reasons for taxonomic moves are given, because if so we may have to come back to use Haplochromis for many Malawi taxa, since Ad’s books and many other publications are not peer reviewed. We also have the case of many peer reviewed publications where no reasons are given for many classifications, like Kullander, 2003. I use a reference plus the expert advice of specialists like Ad and/or Patrick. I sometimes have to come to a compromise and of course I am always willing to correct when more information is available. Me as much as you would very much like to have a peer reviewed publication with reasons given.
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Philippe Burnel
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Re: Chindongo sp. 'elongatus thumbi'?

Post by Philippe Burnel » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:09 am

I.m now in germany, i'll read the article when I'llbe back. MAy be I didn't read it before.I don't remember.
THe problem with the article from RFC is that there is no argument. IF there are arguments in Cichlid News, it will be ok for me.

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Philippe Burnel
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Re: Chindongo sp. 'elongatus thumbi'?

Post by Philippe Burnel » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:32 am

well, I read the article.
Ok for the elongatus group, no problem but what about the johani group included in Chindongo in RFC???????? Nothing !

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Juan Artigas
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Re: Chindongo sp. 'elongatus thumbi'?

Post by Juan Artigas » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:44 am

Philippe Burnel wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:32 am
Ok for the elongatus group, no problem but what about the johani group included in Chindongo in RFC???????? Nothing !
Yes we have not included Pseudotropheus johannii group in Chindongo
Juan Miguel Artigas
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