5 New Metriaclima Species

New cichlid species and taxonomy
Mark Smith
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5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by Mark Smith » Tue May 07, 2013 5:19 pm

Descriptions of five new species of Metriaclima (Teleostei: Cichlidae) from Lake Malaŵi, Africa

JAY R. STAUFFER JR., KRISTIN BLACK & ADRIANUS F. KONINGS

Zootaxa 3647 (1): 101–136 (08 May 2013)

http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/2013/f/zt03647p136.pdf

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cichla
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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by cichla » Wed May 08, 2013 2:07 am

Thanks, Mark.
Maylandia versus Metriaclima an endless story....
Figure: Literature found in Google Scholar using ‘Maylandia' / 'Metriaclima' plotted against the date of publication.
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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by SergeS » Wed May 08, 2013 2:32 am

Thanks Mark, interesting read. Maybe not so much for the new species, but the oldest and biggest discussion in Malawi cichlid history will probably get a new impulse from this :lol:
cichla wrote: Figure: Literature found in Google Scholar using ‘Maylandia' / 'Metriaclima' plotted against the date of publication.
In all honesty, I don't really care who is right and who is wrong (and why) in this discussion, but isn't this picture distorted due to the influence of Ad Konings? After all, he (co-) publishes a lot. The more you publish, the more "right" you are... something like that? :) Oh well. It's just statistics, and in this case they don't mean much anyway I guess.

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Philippe Burnel
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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by Philippe Burnel » Wed May 08, 2013 4:28 am

SergeS wrote:
isn't this picture distorted due to the influence of Ad Konings?
Of course it is !!!
The most used is not necessarily the right one.

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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by SergeS » Wed May 08, 2013 6:23 am

Philippe Burnel wrote: The most used is not necessarily the right one.
Exactly :)

On another note: in the article, several "black dorsal" varieties are now renamed as M. lundoense or M. nigrodorsalis. Does anyone know if M. sp "black dorsal" actually represents a group of fish, iE, are these varieties all M. "black dorsal" (without any mention of a location)? Or is the species known as M. sp. "black dorsal" yet another one?

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Bojan Dolenc
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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by Bojan Dolenc » Wed May 08, 2013 7:18 am

This page is interesting:
http://research.calacademy.org/redirect ... enid=10480
Metriaclima: ... Current status: Synonym of Maylandia Meyer & Forester 1984.
Change in habit, producing change of function, is the main cause of the production of change in living structure. F. Wood Jones (1953) Trends of life

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Philippe Burnel
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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by Philippe Burnel » Wed May 08, 2013 8:34 am

For a long time we were looking for the guy who will add new cells in the maylandia/metriaclima engine..
The winner is... INGO !

Thanks Ingo :lol:

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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by adkonings » Wed May 08, 2013 10:28 am

Philippe Burnel wrote:
SergeS wrote:
isn't this picture distorted due to the influence of Ad Konings?
Of course it is !!!
The most used is not necessarily the right one.
Hello Philippe and all other proponents of Maylandia.
Unfortunately for you all, the nomenclature is governed by the International Commission of Zoological Nomenclature (ICZN) who published a Code which has to be followed. Up to now they have not published a notification that all ichthyologists have to ignore the Code and instead rely on somebody's website. The name Metriaclima has been approved by the ICZN's committee and I prefer to abide by their ruling. Note that our use of Metriaclima has been published persistently in peer-reviewed journals (and, mind you, some reviewers have tried hard to convince us of using Maylandia, always citing the same website, but never the ICZN) while the taxonomic use of Maylandia has only been published in hobby magazines. I understand that this appears an emotional issue with all interested, but if you believe I should use Maylandia than you have to apply with the ICZN committee and ask for that name to be accepted as valid. The moment they declare that name valid I'll use it.
Enjoy your cichlids!
Ad Konings

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Philippe Burnel
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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by Philippe Burnel » Wed May 08, 2013 11:03 am

Hi Ad
adkonings wrote: The name Metriaclima has been approved by the ICZN's committee
Where, When ? Please send me a link for this.
Was it approved against Maylandia or just as a valid name (which can be used if the 2 type species are, in future, placed in different genus.
A name can be valid (such as Metriaclima, and there is no doubt about this) but considered as junior synonym.
while the taxonomic use of Maylandia has only been published in hobby magazines
Which is, following the code, absolutly valid.

The problem is that, in the beginning of the story, you, and others, didn't understand really the french text an believe that there was no diganosis.
This is not true.
The diagnosis is valid and the priority rule must be accepted.


Philippe

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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by adkonings » Wed May 08, 2013 11:30 am

Philippe Burnel wrote:Hi Ad
adkonings wrote: The problem is that, in the beginning of the story, you, and others, didn't understand really the french text an believe that there was no diganosis.
This is not true.
The diagnosis is valid and the priority rule must be accepted.


Philippe
Not only in the beginning, apparently we still don't really understand the French text because no diagnosis is given, only characters of a zebra group of which the type species of the new subgenus is not part. So what is then the diagnosis of Maylandia (which must be defined by its type species)?
Ad Konings

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Philippe Burnel
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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by Philippe Burnel » Wed May 08, 2013 11:37 am

You proove that you don't really understand what is written. Unfortunatly !
But I think that you will never change your point of view. Unfortunatly !
I'll will not try to change but it's really a pitty that you don't.
Maylandia, following the rules, is valid. That's all !

Philippe

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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by Mark Smith » Wed May 08, 2013 11:44 am

Hi Phillipe

I am not attempting to be rude, my apologies if it seems thus, but are you able to genuinely answer Ad's last question?? I was hoping that more light could be shed on the matter by providing a detailed, and justifiable answer to his question.

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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by Philippe Burnel » Wed May 08, 2013 11:50 am

no problem Mark.
But I must find this old publication. And, for the time beeing... i've not the time.
Maybe tomorrow

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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by Mark Smith » Wed May 08, 2013 11:56 am

Many thanks, Phillipe! Take your time.

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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by cichla » Wed May 08, 2013 3:54 pm

SergeS wrote:but isn't this picture distorted due to the influence of Ad Konings?
Philippe wrote: Of course it is !!!
No, I do not think so. Indeed the majority of records are papers by ecologists, physiologists, ethologists etc... who are working with 'zebra'. Such scientists do not care much about taxonomy.
Philippe wrote:For a long time we were looking for the guy who will add new cells in the maylandia/metriaclima engine.. The winner is... Ingo
LOL, ;-) At least it helps to start a vivid discussion...

Well, the 'statistic' (diagram) is, however, not as trivial as it seems .... It shows more than the nomenclatural challenge 'Metriaclima versus Maylandia'. It is also interesting from a sociological point of view.
adkonings wrote: The name Metriaclima has been approved by the ICZN's committee
Where is the 'approvement' published? The committee never rules taxonomic stuff, only nomenclature things. And the committee will publish opinions - so far I know - only after someone send an application.

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Philippe Burnel
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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by Philippe Burnel » Thu May 09, 2013 1:19 am

Image


Wait for the comments

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Philippe Burnel
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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by Philippe Burnel » Thu May 09, 2013 1:58 am

In the 1rst part (red) the authors give the caracters of the type sp of Pseudotropheus (P. williamsi) in order to compare this sp with an other group of mbunas (Zebra group including greshakei)

2nd part (blue) : This is the diganosis for the zebra group.
The problem is to know if M. greshakei belongs or not to the zebra group.

"A few other sp of Pseudotropheus S.L. look like Ps. greshakei and are different from williamsi
Then follows a list of caracters common to these spp (teeth etc)
Follow a list of few species belonging to the group together with P. greshakei
It is clear that P. greshakei belongs to the described group

But the problem seems to be the word "ressemblent à" (=looking like). I don't remember exactly whho said to me many years ago.
This guy said that "ressemble" means "different from" in the sense that if you are looking like somebody this means that you also have differences. If I say that your son looks like you, I point on common caracters (maybe the same nose, the same eyes) of course there are différences (maybe not the same mouth) but the main important is not what is different but what is the same. That's exactly what "ressemble à" means.

So others say that the diagnosis is made for the zebra group, not for Maylandia. It is clear in the text that greshakei and "zebra group" share the same caracters and belong to the same "group/sub-genus" which is confirmed by the next sentence :
"we suggest that the zebra complex must be included in the sub-genus Maylandia"

So there is a diagnosis for a group of species in which is included Ps gresnakei designated as type species for the group raised to the rank of sub-genus.

Of course the diagnosis is not perfect and the diagnosis made later for Metriaclima are better but it's not important.
The priority rule makes Maylandia the name to be used.

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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by Willem Heijns » Thu May 09, 2013 3:20 am

Let us, for the sake of argument, split the sentence into two parts. The first part reads: "Quelques autres espèces de Pseudotropeus s.l. ressemblent Ps. greshakei" (some other species of Pseudotropheus look like Ps. greshakei). The second part: "Quelques autres espèces de Pseudotropheus s.l. different de Ps. williamsi" (some Pseudotropheus species differ from Ps. williamsi). The list of characters following this second part clearly refers to these differences and can be considered a diagnosis. But including greshakei in this second part is strechting my imagination too much. The first part illustrates this. The "other species" cannot include greshakei, because they are compared with it. If the same "other species" are meant in the second part (which is clearly the case because the original sentence is a combination and thus has the same subject) then greshakei is not included there either. So the diagnosis concerns a group not including greshakei.
Slàinte mhath!

Uilleam

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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by cichla » Thu May 09, 2013 3:28 am

Thanks Philippe, Willem.
I do not know who is right or wrong (Maylandia vs Metriaclima).
adkonings wrote: Up to now they have not published a notification that all ichthyologists have to ignore the Code and instead rely on somebody's website.
Dear Adkonings, there is not only a website. There is a paper about the subject: Condé & Géry (1999): Maylandia Meyer et Foerster, 1984, un nom générique disponible (Teleostei, Perciformes, Cichlidae). Rev. franç.Aquar. Herp. 26: 21-22.
Cheers, IS
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Re: 5 New Metriaclima Species

Post by Philippe Burnel » Thu May 09, 2013 4:04 am

Willem Heijns wrote:The "other species" cannot include greshakei, because they are compared with it.

There is absolutly no comparistion between greshakei and "zebra group" ! ! The texte clearly shows that greshakei belongs to the "zebra group" as it's diganosed.

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