Care of large cichlids, political issues

Discussion about cichlids from Central America
Don Hiatt
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Re: What are the Willem Heijns guidelines?

Post by Don Hiatt » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:02 am

Bas Pels wrote:@ Paolo

What would you say yo a law making the trade telling people how big a fish is expected to get, and how agressive? How big a tank is required?

It is a law, on our hobby, but I would cheer it

I agree that would be the responsible thing to do.

newworldsss
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Re: What are the Willem Heijns guidelines?

Post by newworldsss » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:03 am

more legislation/guidelines you have to be kidding, if you want to keep a fish keep it if you don't don't, you guys have way too much time....

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Re: What are the Willem Heijns guidelines?

Post by Don Hiatt » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:14 am

newworldsss wrote:more legislation/guidelines you have to be kidding, if you want to keep a fish keep it if you don't don't, you guys have way too much time....
Your saying that you feel animal cruelty is an optional endeavor?

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Re: What are the Willem Heijns guidelines?

Post by newworldsss » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:07 pm

hahaha whatever...

Alden
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Re: What are the Willem Heijns guidelines?

Post by Alden » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:58 pm

Hey everyone,

Thanks for chiming in. As the original poster, I never meant for this thread to become a political issue. I simply wanted to know what Heijns guidelines were and some tips to keep central Americans in a 125 gallon. I see that this can become a very heated topic and that is never what I intended it to become.

There are many valid points being made here. I do appreciate Mr. Heijn's document. I hope his newest version will come out even more easily accessible to people on forums, at LFS and fish clubs. He makes vaild points in terms of what a suitable tank should be for a given species especially if one wants to observe close to natural behaviors of the fish.

I think, in the end, it is up to the hobbyist what they decide they want to do in light of this document.

Cheers! And happy fish keeping ! :D

Paulo José Alves
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Re: What are the Willem Heijns guidelines?

Post by Paulo José Alves » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:41 am

Hi

The problem with the laws is that the state expects them to be followed...So there would be more regulations to be obbeyed that in the end don´t help anyone and just create problems. We should not forget that who makes the laws are not people from the hobby, they may be advised by biologists but the pratical side of the hobby escapes them completely, that is very clear with the birds abd the reptiles. I would prefer an "Hands off" situation from the legislators. Don´t complicate unnacessarily what exists.
Of course a conscious seller will inform a buyer that he is acquiring a monster that will outgrow the glass of water where he is planning to put it...Of course also this rarely happens. Here in Portugal the law asks that the aquariums with fish for sale must have a picture and information of size and a few others, but in general is not followed.

All The Best
Paulo José
All The Best
Paulo José

Dan Woodland
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Re: What are the Willem Heijns guidelines?

Post by Dan Woodland » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:12 am

Laws like this are useless. Here a state wide texting while driving ban passed but people still text while driving. Just because a law is passed doesn't mean anyone will abide by it. The only way to "police" this type of situation is to use common sense and work within your own community to change how we think about keeping animals at all or keeping them in the right environment.

Common sense is non-existent when you have to punch holes in a large fish's tail to stop them from doing what they do. What's next, breaking a dog's leg because it want to chase a cat in you house?

One last note... common sense dictates when you are performing a task which requires your complete attention you don't do something else at the same time let alone texing WHILE you DRIVE A CAR!!! Are you kidding me??? :shock:

Bas Pels
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Re: What are the Willem Heijns guidelines?

Post by Bas Pels » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:58 am

The point is, we want to prevent a certain kind of cruelty against animals, by housing them wrong

If sellers have to warn people, and they don't, the seller has a risk of being sued - by customers who want to get their money back. THAT is why I would cheer such a law.

I happen to be a lawyer, so I do realize laws dont turn people into angels, but laws might discipline people away from really wrong behaviour - if used properly.

dogofwar
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Re: What are the Willem Heijns guidelines?

Post by dogofwar » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:55 pm

"Common sense is non-existent when you have to punch holes in a large fish's tail to stop them from doing what they do. What's next, breaking a dog's leg because it want to chase a cat in you house?"

...or two holes if one isn't enough...

Such laws are useless because they're not enforceable.

Also, outlawing fish also has the unintended consequence of making fish more desirable to some. When snakeheads were legal in the US, very few kept them (ugly mean fish that would, eventually, jump out and die). Now, they're the Holy Grail for some.

It's up to hobbyists to police ourselves the best we can...

Matt

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Re: What are the Willem Heijns guidelines?

Post by Don Hiatt » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:06 pm

dogofwar wrote:"Common sense is non-existent when you have to punch holes in a large fish's tail to stop them from doing what they do. What's next, breaking a dog's leg because it want to chase a cat in you house?"

...or two holes if one isn't enough...

Such laws are useless because they're not enforceable.

Also, outlawing fish also has the unintended consequence of making fish more desirable to some. When snakeheads were legal in the US, very few kept them (ugly mean fish that would, eventually, jump out and die). Now, they're the Holy Grail for some.

It's up to hobbyists to police ourselves the best we can...

Matt
Very well put. I agree that we need to police ourselves. Maybe some sort of industry self regulation would be prudent.

Your statement actually reminds me of another unfortunate consequence of government regulation of our hobby.

Since the banning of Snake Heads, we have been unable to purchase the smaller members of the family that actually made good aquarium residents.
Instead of specifically banning the large species, they banned them all. But who knows, the smaller members of the family could have had a similar impact if released in our waters as well.

I know, that is a little off topic, but it is an example of what could happen when our hobby becomes regulated and species become restricted.

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Willem Heijns
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Re: Care of large cichlids, political issues

Post by Willem Heijns » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:06 am

Just a little note: the starter of this topic left this discussion because of the politics, which still seems to go on and on. I wonder if he is still interested in his original subject? :? :wink:
Slàinte mhath!

Uilleam

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Lisachromis
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Re: Care of large cichlids, political issues

Post by Lisachromis » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:03 am

I've split this into 2. Hopefully I grabbed enough of the thread to be understandable. I've kept the "politics" in this thread.

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