Next GLCS Auction

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Kyle May
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Next GLCS Auction

Post by Kyle May » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:19 pm

I got a flier for the next GLCS auction and I wanted those of you who frequent the local auctions
to be aware of some changes I noticed in how the GLCS is running their next event.

1) There is a $5 seller fee to put fish in the auction
2) There will be a $3 per bag fee taken from the sale amount. (usually they do a 70/30 split)

So for example: I took 15 bags to the last auction. Under the new rules, I would have to pay $5 plus $3 per bag to sell
or in total, I'm out $50 before my first bag gets to the auction block-($3 X 15 Bags= $45 + $5 seller fee = $50)
At the last auction my 15 bags sold for $59 and I got a check for $38. Under the new rules, my 15 bags would sell for $59 and I would get a check for $9 which in my world equates to a $34 loss ($29 plus $5 seller fee).

Someone tried to sell it to me as a positive saying that it encourages you to bring more expensive fish and that the
selling amounts will be higher. I think bringing more expensive fish will only make the loss higher. I've been to enough auctions to know that even the nice fish often sell for very low prices. I got a tank full of Enanatiopis once at a GLCS auction for $15. Those fish should have gone for $15 each...not $15 per bag.

I just wanted you to be aware prior to showing up with a bunch of fish you spent all morning bagging.
Maybe your fish will sell for much higher than mine and it won't affect you.

Kyle
Kyle May
Ohio Cichlid Association
Northern Ohio, USA

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dbrummitt
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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by dbrummitt » Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:41 pm

Yeah Kyle I heard and kinda seen this coming. I have heard a lot of people talking about this as a good thing and it cuts out the little guy. You and I may have a lot of tanks and fish but myself only have a few fish even selling; especially right. It seems like a good idea to the club making quite a bit of money but it hurts those guys who go to every auction and bring their quality fish. It may not be the hottest or coolest fish you have ever seen but they are great quality and have had a lot of time growing them for those who make sure to bring great fish. So in the end I see it cutting auctions way down and guys not having as much luck in selling their fish. Just one mans opinion. No knock downs just wish there was a set sellers fee of like 15 bucks for up to X amount of bags instead of 3 bucks a bag. I don't mind paying a buck a bag because I have the confidence that my fish will sell for more than a buck usually. Hope it doesn't bite them in the butt. Dustin B,
Fish and Disc Golf, what else do I need?

LewC
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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by LewC » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:36 pm

Hi, guys!

I just looked at a flier for their fall auction, and it's $2 a bag, not $3.

The math says if a bag sells for $5 or less, the seller would do better at a 30/70 auction, but if a bag sells for $6 or more, the seller would do better at a $2 a bag auction. The usual seller fee is $2 or $3, so the $5 seller fee on the $2 a bag auction wouldn't have that much effect.

Another factor is that bags usually sell for more at the fall auction that at the summer auction.

I think they want to have a smaller auction with higher quality fish, so we'll see if this works out for them. I don't think this is about making more money, but, of course, I could be wrong.

Lew

TYTONK
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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by TYTONK » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:18 am

Auction date?

Thanks

LewC
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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by LewC » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:59 am

Sept 19.

I also did the math comparing a $2/bag auction with an OCA auction ($1/bag, 70/30 on the remainder). An item going for $4 or less nets more for the seller at an OCA auction, while an item going for $5 or more does better at a $2/bag auction.

The OCA instituted the $1/bag skim in order to cut down the number of bags and increase the quality of fish (see above), yet I had more that one person tell me we were being greedy.

Lew

trebor69
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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by trebor69 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:51 pm

for me....none of these club auctions sell fish for high enough prices to justify the cost and hassle of selling fish at them

there are many reasons why...but there are a LOT of bags at auctions that go for PEANUTS compared to what I think they should

I know the clubs need to generate operating $$$

but I am just not going to go through the time/effort/hassle to bag up $10 fish and sell them for $2
you can do the math any way you want to but the bottom line is the seller takes home a FRACTION of the fishes value in most instances

I regularly see nice fish selling for less than feeders or an auctioneer begging the crowd for a buck

this is starting to remind me of feeBay where I quit selling years ago due to them constantly restructuring their fees for this and fees for that
to nibble away at the small profit most sellers were getting...now ebay is pretty much nothing more than a huge retail outlet with a few rare
hard to find antiques mixed in

these auctions need participants and all this complication and fees just discourages them

am I ever gunna risk bringing say for example a pair of my L183s ? (which by the way are easily worth $500)
nope....I can get much more for them in a plain private sale than risking an auction

am I ever gunna bring a couple bags of my young common bushynose? (a very common overabundant fish at these auctions)
nope...by the time I pay all the fees and splits I stand to lose $$$....may as well feed them to my buddys oscar

I dunno....thats just my opinion.

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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by Dan Woodland » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:15 pm

There are multiple effects going on here.

Firstly, since I joined the Cichlid scene many years ago I've noticed the price of fish dropping at auctions regardless of quality or rarity.

Secondly, in an effort to improve money for the sellers and quality for the buyers clubs are installing new fee structures to eliminate the bags and bags of common bushy nose plecos you mentioned.

An undesirable side affect of those new fee structures is the loss of the upstart or smaller breeders who may only have three or four bags of “cheaper” or more common fish to sell. On the other side of the scale we’re going to loose the high end fish breeders because they will not bring higher dollar fish like Tropheus or rarer breeds to an auction.

Another effect is the dropping of prices paid by auction attendees. Unfortunately there is an air where everyone thinks they can steal fish at an auction; they say “why pay the price of buying them from local breeders when I can get a whole bag for the same price as one fish?”

What we are left with is the middle ground or not so common or not so rare fish that everyone has or will have after an auction cycle (where each club has two a year).

Obviously we’ll all need to look at where things are going before we go too far in the wrong direction.

trebor69
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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by trebor69 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:50 pm

Well I would respectfully disagree with any argument that tries to play off more and higher fees as more money for sellers and/or better quality for buyers.
The only thing that will increase seller money is lower fees and more buyers willing to pay a fair price for nice fish.
I personally have not seen a major problem with quality for buyers.

I am not sure Kyles math is correct. (I believe the seller fee and bag fees were already withheld before he got his $9 check)
But even so his example shows the cold hard truth. Even if the bag fee was $2 and not $3 whooptie doo $24 for $60 worth of fish.
Kyle May wrote: So for example: I took 15 bags to the last auction. Under the new rules, I would have to pay $5 plus $3 per bag to sell
or in total, I'm out $50 before my first bag gets to the auction block-($3 X 15 Bags= $45 + $5 seller fee = $50)
At the last auction my 15 bags sold for $59 and I got a check for $38. Under the new rules, my 15 bags would sell for $59 and I would get a check for $9 which in my world equates to a $34 loss ($29 plus $5 seller fee).


Someone tried to sell it to me as a positive saying that it encourages you to bring more expensive fish and that the
selling amounts will be higher. I think bringing more expensive fish will only make the loss higher. I've been to enough auctions to know that even the nice fish often sell for very low prices. I got a tank full of Enanatiopis once at a GLCS auction for $15. Those fish should have gone for $15 each...not $15 per bag.

I just wanted you to be aware prior to showing up with a bunch of fish you spent all morning bagging.
Maybe your fish will sell for much higher than mine and it won't affect you.

Kyle
like Dan said....multiple things affecting it

I think there is already a limit on the number of bags of each kind of fish a seller can bring?

Maybe there needs to be harsher limits targeted at some specific fish that show up in large numbers? ie common bushynose

I dont know a perfect solution....but why would Kyle bring 15 bags of fish worth approx $60 and go home with $9 ?
haha I bet he didnt even take out for bags...rubber bands...bag buddies etc etc

Dan Woodland
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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by Dan Woodland » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:42 pm

trebor69 wrote:Well I would respectfully disagree with any argument that tries to play off more and higher fees as more money for sellers and/or better quality for buyers.
The only thing that will increase seller money is lower fees and more buyers willing to pay a fair price for nice fish.
I personally have not seen a major problem with quality for buyers.

I am not sure Kyles math is correct. (I believe the seller fee and bag fees were already withheld before he got his $9 check)
But even so his example shows the cold hard truth. Even if the bag fee was $2 and not $3 whooptie doo $24 for $60 worth of fish.
Kyle May wrote: So for example: I took 15 bags to the last auction. Under the new rules, I would have to pay $5 plus $3 per bag to sell
or in total, I'm out $50 before my first bag gets to the auction block-($3 X 15 Bags= $45 + $5 seller fee = $50)
At the last auction my 15 bags sold for $59 and I got a check for $38. Under the new rules, my 15 bags would sell for $59 and I would get a check for $9 which in my world equates to a $34 loss ($29 plus $5 seller fee).


Someone tried to sell it to me as a positive saying that it encourages you to bring more expensive fish and that the
selling amounts will be higher. I think bringing more expensive fish will only make the loss higher. I've been to enough auctions to know that even the nice fish often sell for very low prices. I got a tank full of Enanatiopis once at a GLCS auction for $15. Those fish should have gone for $15 each...not $15 per bag.

I just wanted you to be aware prior to showing up with a bunch of fish you spent all morning bagging.
Maybe your fish will sell for much higher than mine and it won't affect you.

Kyle
like Dan said....multiple things affecting it

I think there is already a limit on the number of bags of each kind of fish a seller can bring?

Maybe there needs to be harsher limits targeted at some specific fish that show up in large numbers? ie common bushynose

I dont know a perfect solution....but why would Kyle bring 15 bags of fish worth approx $60 and go home with $9 ?
haha I bet he didnt even take out for bags...rubber bands...bag buddies etc etc

note: I'm going to touch on a couple things here, we can talk in person at a meeting if you like.

Unfortunately, the numbers backup the idea. I don't want to debate it here but numerous studies were done including several years of OCA auctions. A quick example, the sweet spot for a typical OCA auction is approximately 850-900 bags. After 900 bags the price per bag drops drastically, mainly because the number of buyers drops off and there is only so much money available from the buyers. You know, dollar bag time near the end of the auction. With that in mind if bags are going for near nothing, say $2 ea, at the end of the auction the club makes near nothing more and so does the seller. Keep in mind I'm not saying the club makes nothing based on just the bag sales. I'm also including the fact that the club has to pay for more room rental time, and more just to extend the auctions for a few more hours. I'm sure some one on this forum has the report handy and could post it.

trebor69
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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by trebor69 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:45 am

I need more coffee. I just reread some of the posts and realized that GLCS is going to charge

$2 per bag with no split?
not $2 per bag PLUS 70/30 ?

hmmm on my first read thru I was thinking they were going to charge the higher bag fee AND the 70/30

That is a whole nuther story. But still a concern.

I don't get mailings from GLCS.
What happens to bags that dont sell or sell for only a buck? Still the $2 bag fee?

Dan Woodland
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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by Dan Woodland » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:05 am

trebor69 wrote:I need more coffee. I just reread some of the posts and realized that GLCS is going to charge

$2 per bag with no split?
not $2 per bag PLUS 70/30 ?

hmmm on my first read thru I was thinking they were going to charge the higher bag fee AND the 70/30

That is a whole nuther story. But still a concern.

I don't get mailings from GLCS.
What happens to bags that dont sell or sell for only a buck? Still the $2 bag fee?
Yep, anything $2 or under goes to the GLCS club.

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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by Somethingfishyinc.net » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:51 am

IMO,
Auctions suck! Dead in the water anymore. The after affect with the crappy deformed & crossed bred stuff that I have seen over the years that came from the Local AUctions is real bad! As most know I have been in & around this hobby, business very long time. I can not count how many people have come in my shop with either some fry or the fish them selves only to find out they are bogus & then it turns out they got them at the auction! New people just do not know what they are getting other then thinking they got a super deal on a bag full of cichlids for $5 when my cost that per fish. But once they realize they got crap & can not get rid of it then they are sour. More & more will be turned off from going to auctions. At the last Extravaganza I thought I got a pair of nice bi color peacocks & they turn out to be a hybrid! When they went up I could not really tell in the bag until I got them in my hands for a closer look, I was super pissed! I Me of all people should know better.
Anyway this is why I'm all for the swap meets where the breeder & buyer are face to face to talk about the fish & price etc. Eliminate the middle man(auction). Less headaces etc..
Anyway I'm done. I most likely will not being doing these thing much because I do not have the time & usually not worth it for someone like me in the business that needs to make a living at it. It cost me more money & time when I have good regular paying customers that come from all over to patronize us on a daily bases that deserve the most attention.

later
me Dave

TheFishGuy
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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by TheFishGuy » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:54 am

Personally I've done pretty good at auctions. I enjoy them, I enjoy the people, talking with them and generally having a good time. If you've been burned at an auction then you live and learn. If you really want something then get off your rear and go up and look at it before you bid. Lord knows I've ran up there to check out the bag while it's being auctioned.

OR, get off your lazy bones and be a runner. This way you'll be very intitmate with what's going up for auction. Honestly that's the number one reason I run bags.

Dan Woodland
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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by Dan Woodland » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:28 am

Obviously there are many different reasons people go or don't go to auctions. They aren't for everyone and they have never been promoted as such. Remember auctions they are buyer beware, no one person knows every fish.

The same things can happen at a swap meet if the buyer is not educated about the fish they are interested in and/or the seller is dishonest/misinformed about they’re own fish. What if the seller was told one thing and they are another? It happens. The only way this will stop is if a person buys the wrong fish they identify it or destroy it. We’ve all been there.

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Kyle May
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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by Kyle May » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:57 pm

I'll redo my math at $2 per bag and I think my example still works:

So for example: I took 15 bags to the last GLCS auction.
Under the new rules, I would have to pay $5 plus $2 per bag to sell,or in total,
I'm out $35 before my first bag gets to the auction block-($2 X 15 Bags= $30 + $5 seller fee = $35)
At the last auction my 15 bags sold for $59 and I got a check for $38. Under the new rules, my 15 bags would sell for $59 and I would get a check for $24 which in my world equates to a $14 loss as compared to the last auction. ($59 minus $35 worth of selling fees equals $24)

Old rules my check is $38
New rules my check is $24

And this benefits me how?

Lou's example using a $6 selling price doesn't work in the real world. For example, we've tried to have the initial
bid on our BAP fish be $6 and that didn't work. BAP's still went for a dollar or two.

At the Akron Auction on July 11th, 2009, only 3 bags out of ten bags of my fish
sold for $6 or higher. So less than 30% of the time would this system work to actually make me money.
5 of the ten bags sold for $1
The final two sold for $3.

So applying the new GLCS math to my last performance at the Akron Auction this is what would have happened:

Ten bags entered (fee $5 plus $2 selling fee per bag = $25)
Total selling price of the ten bags = $35
Total I would get from GLCS under the new rules - $10
Total I got from Akron at 70/30 split= $24.50

This actually won't be an issue for me because my bag count at the next GLCS will be zero, so if they are trying
to reduce the amount of bags, then the new policy is working. I also can't think of anyone I know who is planning on taking fish the next time. I think we'll all sit it out and see how it works out. Maybe they'll prove me wrong.

At the last auction, GLCS increased the price on the food...lol...and wouldn't let anyone look at the fish once the auction started. So all of the people who dropped fish after the auction started, (me included), didn't have the buyers look at their fish. So buyer beware was kinda shot seeings how we couldn't inspect the merchandise. I personally think I got hurt because folks didn't get a chance to see how good my fish were....

Let's hope they don't start charging for parking.....lol... I don't wanna have to walk in.

Best,

Kyle May
Kyle May
Ohio Cichlid Association
Northern Ohio, USA

trebor69
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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by trebor69 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:07 pm

Im with ya Kyle.... if these auctions cannot be run in such a way to make sellers feel like its worth their time and effort
then may as well quit them all together.

I'll use your example again haha

$59 for 15 bags = $3.93 per bag lets round up in the clubs favor and say Kyle bags averaged $4

minus $2 per bag fee and minus $5 seller fee = $1.60 per bag to Kyle

looks like the 70/30 split just got changed to 40/60 ....with the club actually pocketing more than the seller


thats just one possible scenario but I would guess that its a good example of average seller performance

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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by LewC » Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:41 am

Well, I think it was a great, but unusual, auction.

There were a little less than 300 bags which went in an clean 3 hours.

There were many high quality and rare (for auctions) offerings. I'd say less than a half dozen went for only $1, less than a dozen that went for only $2, and not a lot that went for only $3. Maybe around half went in the $10 to $20 range.

Talking to the club leadership, it looked like they did not do it to make more money, any more than did the OCA when we made our changes a few years ago. People were inacurately calling us greedy, also. GLCS gets that place cheap, so covering the cost of the venue was not a problem.

They're going to be paying out some big checks, but, as mentioned in above postings, this wasn't for all sellers. It's not like they're going to be doing this all the time, but I think they're planning to do it once a year.

Bottom line: If you have some valuable fish to move, this kind of action works well for you, if not, stick to the more standard auctions for selling.

Lew

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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by LewC » Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:29 pm

A few more facts and figures:

I was a little low on my bag count, there were about 325.

The bags sold for an average of $11 each!

The club made about half of what they make under their usual system, but were completely happy with the outcome.

Lew

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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by Dan Woodland » Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:48 pm

LewC wrote:Well, I think it was a great, but unusual, auction.

There were a little less than 300 bags which went in an clean 3 hours.

There were many high quality and rare (for auctions) offerings. I'd say less than a half dozen went for only $1, less than a dozen that went for only $2, and not a lot that went for only $3. Maybe around half went in the $10 to $20 range.

Talking to the club leadership, it looked like they did not do it to make more money, any more than did the OCA when we made our changes a few years ago. People were inacurately calling us greedy, also. GLCS gets that place cheap, so covering the cost of the venue was not a problem.

They're going to be paying out some big checks, but, as mentioned in above postings, this wasn't for all sellers. It's not like they're going to be doing this all the time, but I think they're planning to do it once a year.

Bottom line: If you have some valuable fish to move, this kind of action works well for you, if not, stick to the more standard auctions for selling.

Lew
Sorry Lew but your numbers are misleading unless you have the exact figures. We all know how numbers can look until you actually see the final tally.
Also I don't think anyone here was outright calling them greedy, I think they were pointing out how the little guy would get crushed and now has one less outlet for their fish. Additionally there is no guarantee a "rare" or "different" fish would go for higher figures under any program. I've heard some attendees say their "high end" or "rare" fish when for very little compared to their "normal" value. Personally I've brought very rare fish to an auction, under many different auction "concepts", going for nearly nothing most of the time, compared to what they are "worth".

LewC
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Re: Next GLCS Auction

Post by LewC » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:00 am

I don't know why I would want to mislead anyone, especially since I consider the OCA my primary club, not GLCS.

The numbers in my 9/20 posting (that Dan quoted) were estimates, but the numbers in my 9/21 posting were related to me by the GLCS president after doing the "final tally".

Also, while there were no explicit accusations, a close reading of at least one of the above posts reveals clear implications that the club was being greedy. There willingness to make less profit in order to have a better auction proves that nothing could be farther from the truth.

Auctions are for buyers, too. I think many of the attendees (even "little guys") went home happy that they at least had a shot at a nice assortment of valuable Tangs (eg. Paracyps, Callochromis, and various sand sifters and feather fins, among others) and a few nice South Americans, without having to sit through lot after lot of common auction fish.

Concerning Kyle's complaint that attendees at the summer auction weren't allowed to view the bags after the auction began: I agree. That was a poor solution to a problem. At this fall auction, the problem was solved by putting the auctioneer on the stage, and people were again allowed to look at the bags.

All auctions don't have to be the same, and talking to my friends in the club, GLCS continues to mull new ideas for auctions that will please area hobbyists.

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