Altum or not?

Discussion about cichlids from South America

Moderator: Florent

Gordon C. Snelling
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:57 am

Re: Altum or not?

Post by Gordon C. Snelling » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:46 pm

I am leaning to agree with Heiko. To me the head shape in profile is not really quite altumish. I have found the head shape to be extremely variable , ranging from pure altum looking to scalare form and all between. Admittedly in this case this variable appearance may be an artifact of the angle of the photos.

User avatar
cichla
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 468
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:31 am
Location: Berlin, Deutschland

Re: Altum or not?

Post by cichla » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:15 pm

Dear all,
I think these are P. altum (see character states mentioned above). The body shape in P. scalare (in the current sense of this taxon) is variable and some populations of P scalare are very similar to P altum. [See: 2003: Variation of body depth in Pterophyllum scalare (Schultze in Lichtenstein, 1823). Z. Fischk. 6: 73-85]. Therfore, only the bar pattern and the number of scales are useful for discrimination.
Greetings, IS

Tommi
Posts: 75
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:30 am

Re: Altum or not?

Post by Tommi » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:56 pm

I tried to take closeup photo and count the scales but so far photos are not good enough. I put one more here anyways.

Image

Paulo José Alves
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:43 am
Location: Barreiro, Portugal

Re: Altum or not?

Post by Paulo José Alves » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:29 am

Hi

The statement by Bleher is surprising to say the least. He is THE expert but nonetheless I still think they are 100% altum, scalare are definitely diferent and I see no transitional caracteristics in these fish. Unless I and 99% of experienced aquarium breeders have never seen the real altum, these fish are the real thing, it´s not possible to confuse them with scalare. The alternative is that what we think is altum is in fact a fourth species, there´s scalare, leopoldi, the "fake-twin-altum"(that everybody thinks is altum) and the real altum that only Bleher knows of.
I have a great respect for the acomplishments of Bleher, I would like to hear from him what is the real altum and see photos.
All The Best
Paulo José

User avatar
Philippe Burnel
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 1115
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 5:54 am
Location: France/ Normandy
Contact:

Re: Altum or not?

Post by Philippe Burnel » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:48 am

Paulo José Alves wrote: I would like to hear from him what is the real altum and see photos.
That's what I'm waiting for too...but I think we'll never get the answer.

User avatar
Willem Heijns
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 799
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:18 pm
Location: Stiphout, Netherlands

Re: Altum or not?

Post by Willem Heijns » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:14 am

That's the problem with Heiko. If you question his statements he never explains himself, he just says he's the expert (spent all his life in Amazonia) and you just have to believe him. See also the topic on the lectotypes of Symphysodon aequifasciatus. 8)
Slàinte mhath!

Uilleam

User avatar
Philippe Burnel
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 1115
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 5:54 am
Location: France/ Normandy
Contact:

Re: Altum or not?

Post by Philippe Burnel » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:24 am

That's one of the reason is not a credible guy.

User avatar
Ken Davis
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 343
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:27 am
Location: Georgia USA
Contact:

Re: Altum or not?

Post by Ken Davis » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:33 am

Those are altums, no doubt about it, I also follow Kullander's recent classification for Symphysodon. Heiko puts out nice picture books. :) Ken
An empty tank is a terrible thing to waste!

Dean Hougen
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:34 pm
Location: Norman, OK
Contact:

Re: Altum or not?

Post by Dean Hougen » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:16 pm

Ken Davis wrote:Those are altums, no doubt about it, I also follow Kullander's recent classification for Symphysodon. Heiko puts out nice picture books. :) Ken
:lol: :lol: :lol: Nailed that one exactly right!


Dean
Chair, American Cichlid Association (ACA)
President, Oklahoma Aquarium Association (OKAA)

ACA 2012 Convention in Indianapolis, IN
http://www.aca2012indy.com

User avatar
Willem Heijns
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 799
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:18 pm
Location: Stiphout, Netherlands

Re: Altum or not?

Post by Willem Heijns » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:57 am

which classification are you referring to?
Slàinte mhath!

Uilleam

User avatar
Ken Davis
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 343
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:27 am
Location: Georgia USA
Contact:

Re: Altum or not?

Post by Ken Davis » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:15 am

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 1&SRETRY=0
Blue/brown S. aequifasciatus, Heckel S. discus, Green S. tarzoo, as opposed to Heikos, Blue/brown S. haroldi, Heckel S. discus, and Green S. aequifasciatus Ken
An empty tank is a terrible thing to waste!

User avatar
Willem Heijns
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 799
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:18 pm
Location: Stiphout, Netherlands

Re: Altum or not?

Post by Willem Heijns » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:38 am

link doesn't work for me. do you have a reference?
Slàinte mhath!

Uilleam

PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:28 pm

Re: Altum or not?

Post by PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:24 am

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 4/abstract

didnt need the ?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 at the end
Live in the UK?
Interested In Cichlids??
Then join the British Cichlid Association

User avatar
Willem Heijns
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 799
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:18 pm
Location: Stiphout, Netherlands

Re: Altum or not?

Post by Willem Heijns » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:59 am

That's what I thought. It's not Kullander's classification then, it's Ready et al.
Slàinte mhath!

Uilleam

User avatar
cichla
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 468
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:31 am
Location: Berlin, Deutschland

Re: Altum or not?

Post by cichla » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:56 pm

Dear All,
I would like to know which characters or character states you used to identify these as P. altum. How I mentioned above I think the only suitable feature is the bar pattern (since the body shape in P scalare is variable and no scale counts available). And I would like to know why someone can believe these are P scalare (which characters indicate that these specimens are representing P scalare).
Greetings, IS

dwarfpike
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:51 pm
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: Altum or not?

Post by dwarfpike » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:46 pm

Although the body shape of P. scalare is variable, I don't think P. altum is as much. So while a P. scalare can be shaped like an altum, an altum isn't going to be shaped like a scalare ... yes?

As for the banding, as stated back in the second post ... I haven't seen altums whose first primary bar thins as much as it does in these pics. Also the secondary bars are usually stronger, but that could be from the stress of settling in.

But also as stated, I haven't seen live altums in person in quite some time now (probably 12+ years). I am deffinately in the minority, and more than willing to admit when I'm wrong. :lol:
Chris Morris

User avatar
Lisachromis
Administrator
Posts: 2876
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:11 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: Altum or not?

Post by Lisachromis » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:13 pm

What are the diagnostic characteristics of altum and scalare? Surely someone knows. Maybe they could be posted.

Dan Woodland
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 3048
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:49 am

Re: Altum or not?

Post by Dan Woodland » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:30 pm

Lisachromis wrote:What are the diagnostic characteristics of altum and scalare? Surely someone knows. Maybe they could be posted.
...and maybe some photo examples of each?

a.d.wood
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:38 am
Location: Staffordshire, UK
Contact:

Re: Altum or not?

Post by a.d.wood » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:20 pm

Dan Woodland wrote:...and maybe some photo examples of each?
Well I can help with images of Altums (which on another forum Heiko kindly declared them to be the true Altum!!):

Image
Image
Image

These are from my first group of 5 fish that were collected back in December 2008, I was fortunate to collect a further 6 a few days back (completely different import). I say fortunate, not so good on the bank balance though!!

Andrew

Paulo José Alves
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:43 am
Location: Barreiro, Portugal

Re: Altum or not?

Post by Paulo José Alves » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:00 am

No doubt these are altum but so are the others!
All The Best
Paulo José

Post Reply

Return to “South American Cichlids”