Fishing trip puzzles

Discussion about cichlids from Central America
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chc
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Re: Fishing trip puzzles

Post by chc » Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:14 am

To me, there's nothing unusual about that uro photo that can't be explained by the angle/movement of the fish. We've all taken pictures that exaggerate or diminish certain physical characteristics of our subjects.

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John Heaton
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Location: San Andres, Peten, Guatemala, Central America.

Re: Fishing trip puzzles

Post by John Heaton » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:15 pm

Here is the complete extract from research made by the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County. Tulane University.
This very extensive work covered the variation and distribution of four middle American Cichlids belonging to the amphilophus species group of the genus Cichlasoma.
A French naturalist J. Pellegin was collecting in Guatemala in 1904 and assigned his specimens to margaritiferum but were later found to be robertsoni.
This does not help make any progress but illustrates more confusion.

Although Gunther (1862) recorded the type of margaritiferum from Lago Peten, Guatemala, Regan (1905; 1906-08) apparently distrusted these data and listed only "Guatemala" as type locality. P. H. Greenwood (personal com¬munication) has kindly examined the British Museum of Natural History registers and indicates that" ... the line. which would be occupied by the type locality is left blank. The specimens listed before C. margaritiferum. registered on the same day and collected by Salvin, are given the locality of Isabella (and no other indication as to whether the place was a river or a lake name). The specimen immediately after C. margaritiferum is listed as coming from Lake Peten ... " Dr. Greenwood assumed that Gunther either knew that margaritiferum came from Lago Peten or that he mis-read the register. The locality "Isabella" may refer to a town on the Belize River several kilometers upriver from Belize. Godman (1915) related how Salvin, who collected the holotype, made three visits to Guatemala always by way of Belize, British Honduras. He spent some time near Belize and about three years collecting natural history specimens on both slopes of Guatemala. Thus, until additional specimens of margariliferum are rediscovered, it is not even certain from which versant it came, although evidence suggests it is from the Atlantic slope of Guatemala or British Honduras.
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Isabella sm.JPG

Rico Morgenstern
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Re: Fishing trip puzzles

Post by Rico Morgenstern » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:34 am

John Heaton wrote:The locality "Isabella" may refer to a town on the Belize River several kilometers upriver from Belize.
A locality 'Isabella' is not mentioned in Günther's works, especially not in his detailed account of Central American fishes, which contains a locality list and a map prepared by Salvin himself. Therefore, the entry in the NHM register may rather be a misspelling of either Lake Yzabal or the River Santa Isabel. However, since we can be almost sure now about the identity of Heros margaritifer - whether it is a natural hybrid or not - and its origin from Lake Peten, this is probably not relevant.
chc wrote:To me, there's nothing unusual about that uro photo that can't be explained by the angle/movement of the fish. We've all taken pictures that exaggerate or diminish certain physical characteristics of our subjects.
I agree. The color is also not unusual in the light of the variability of this species. If you check the link below, you can see how different urophtalmus can look.

http://eau.douce.free.fr/photos%20poiss ... ntrale.htm

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John Heaton
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Re: Fishing trip puzzles

Post by John Heaton » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:16 am

Thank you Rico, that is extremely interesting. I would very much like to be able to read Gunther’s work and see the map produced by Salvin.
I had already surmised that Salvin had entered The Peten from British Honduras, using a mule train. He also must have been using copies of old maps made by the Spanish Conquistadors.
I have now received a copy of Cichlids of North and Central America, By Don Conkel, a magnificent production and reference work. He mentions that the location where he collected the margaritifer had a small unnamed stream entering the Lake. I had a closer look at the location where I collected my fish in March. I enlarged the satellite image and saw the stream. The stream cannot be seen from the Lake as it is surrounded by reed beds.
As soon as we are able we will revisit this location and I will put my boys ashore to explore the stream
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Location x.jpg

Rico Morgenstern
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Re: Fishing trip puzzles

Post by Rico Morgenstern » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:54 am

Here is the link to Günther's work:

http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/44395#9

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John Heaton
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Re: Fishing trip puzzles

Post by John Heaton » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:00 am

Thanks Rico, I have downloaded it. This will keep me busy for several days.
Considering the date, the map shows amazing detail. I notice that the Rio Santa Isabel is a tributary of the Rio Pasion, which makes sense now.
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Salvin map cut sm.JPG

Bernard GBX
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Re: Fishing trip puzzles

Post by Bernard GBX » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:16 am

Hello,
I haven't seen this post...
I wrote an article for the french association AFC (An Cichlid 10) on this fish because in Europe there was a mistake with an Astatheros from Honduras.
Willem send me a picture from the margaritifer holotype and the only fish who seems to be it was this of Conkel. So this new collect is very interesting.
Please, try to reproduce it !

Mark Smith
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Re: Fishing trip puzzles

Post by Mark Smith » Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:12 am

Hi John

Nearly 5 years have passed, and was wondering if you ever got this species to spawn for you yet?

MRDFds
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Re: Fishing trip puzzles

Post by MRDFds » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:51 pm

The general banding pattern is certainly reminiscent of A. robertsoni (see below), the white edging of the lateral spots of C. urophthalmum, but the whole appearance doesn't quite fit anything.

Norcal_Cichlid
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Re: Fishing trip puzzles

Post by Norcal_Cichlid » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:05 am

VERY interesting thread. any updates?
Current stock-2 F1 Breeding pairs of Chuco Micropthalmus, F1 Theraps Lentiginosum (2 breeding pairs), Theraps Coeruleus (1 breeding pair), 7 5-8" F0 Ornatum "Rio Choco", 2 Beani "White" and about 400 Micropthalmus fry!

Mark Smith
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Re: Fishing trip puzzles

Post by Mark Smith » Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:53 pm

Did John Heaton get out of the hobby?

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