Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Discussion about cichlids from Central America
BobP
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by BobP » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:43 am

I can offer a few details about the pantostictus Jeff Rapps was selling in 2006-2007. The breeders were collected by Dan Woodland in the Rio San Antonio. I believe Dan said it was near the town of Gonzalez. Maybe Dan can chime in with the exact location. Jeff had told me that most of the fry I sent him went to the UK. Alan Rollings also brought about a dozen back that he got from me at the 06 ACA convention.
I'll try to find some photos of my breeders. Looking around on that oddball express site that is linked in this thead,I see a photo I took of the breeder female on their main page.

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Juan Artigas
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Juan Artigas » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:01 am

Alright that sounds just right the Rio San Antonio is a tributary of the Rio Guayalejo/Tamesí in the Panuco drainage. So your fish very likely come from this location. I would not mix them with any other population as this particular variant develops a beautiful black belt on the flanks when dominant in coloration, as well as a a yellow shine on the chest. Normal colored individuals have red dots on the body, which intensify as the fish gets larger. You can also learn about breeding patterns and more in Melo Salazar article here in the site:

http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=402
Juan Miguel Artigas
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Tom Williams
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Tom Williams » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:25 pm

Thanks for all you input everybody. I think i am happy i have the riverine Panto.

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Rick Thibert
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:11 pm

I don't plan to mix the two variants, unless of course they existed together in nature, hence my questions along these lines!

Thank you BobP for helping out. Let's hope Dan W sees this thread and can help out! :)

Your pic on http://www.oddballexpress.co.uk homepage is actually taken from Jeff Rapps' site http://www.tangledupincichlids.com .

Juan, I think you're an asset to the world of CA cichlids. Your knowledge is of benefit to us all and I'd personally like to thank your for having the most comprehensive website that attracts the world's elite cichlid people. FANTASTIC!!

Have you any books in print yet? Would love to read and read some more!! :)

BC

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Juan Artigas
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Juan Artigas » Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:35 pm

Thanks, I of course learn and get as much enjoyment from this site as you do.
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BobP
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by BobP » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:49 pm

I found a couple photos of the wild pair.

This is the photo of the female in partial spawning color that was on Jeff's site for a while.
Image

The male
Image

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Rick Thibert
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:34 am

Juan,

I owe you a nice cold one! :) Do you have any plans to come to the UK and chat for the British Cichlid Association................ please!!?? :)




BobP,

They look great! Do you still have the pair? Do you know the exact collection point? :)

BC

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Tom Williams
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Tom Williams » Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:35 am

I can't wait to see these fish mature, the adults in the ophotos are stunning! I am gald I picked these fish up!
BC Juan Miguel talked to BCA a few yeasr ago on the reophilic cihlids of Central America. It was excellent. I to would like to see him make a return journey. :)

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Rick Thibert
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:36 am

We would welcome you with open arms!

A mutual friend is coming to visit you from July 4 Juan! I'll tell him to get you a tall cold one of your choice on me! :)

:)

They are stunning fish! I agree Tom! :)

I know Juan has been over a few years ago, but I didn't attend, missed out......... (wasn't a BCA member at the time :( ). hoping for a return visit!

BC

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Ribstick
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Ribstick » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:05 am

BIG_CICHLID wrote:Pantostictus, one pic of each variety for comparison:
Image
Image
BC

If I understand it well, the fish in the second picture is from Rio San Antonio?

@Big_cichlid: Are mine the same as the one in the first picture?

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Rick Thibert
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:53 pm

Hello Pascal my friend! ;)

Hope this message finds you well! :)

Now getting to the Panto Pics I posted
Ribstick wrote:
BIG_CICHLID wrote:Pantostictus, one pic of each variety for comparison:
Image
Image
BC

If I understand it well, the fish in the second picture is from Rio San Antonio?

@Big_cichlid: Are mine the same as the one in the first picture?
The fish in the first picture is indeed the same as yours, a sibling to yours actually. (Bred by Dave Lowndes and almost exclusively all Pantos in the UK are from his pair, with the exception of the fish in picture 2 that I have 4 of and their father is still here in the UK as well.)

You recognize fish number 2 as from Rio San Antonio. That's great to have this info Rib, but can you be certain? If so, how? :) Please explain!

BC (Rick)

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Ribstick
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Ribstick » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:06 pm

BIG_CICHLID wrote:...You recognize fish number 2 as from Rio San Antonio. That's great to have this info Rib, but can you be certain? If so, how? :) Please explain!....
Hi Rick,

I'm not certain about it. I was asking the question after reading the posts of BobP en Juan. Cause the pantostictus on picture 2 has the red dots Juan is talking about.


Pascal
BobP wrote:I can offer a few details about the pantostictus Jeff Rapps was selling in 2006-2007. The breeders were collected by Dan Woodland in the Rio San Antonio.....
Juan Artigas wrote:Alright that sounds just right the Rio San Antonio is a tributary of the Rio Guayalejo/Tamesí in the Panuco drainage. So your fish very likely come from this location. I would not mix them with any other population as this particular variant develops a beautiful black belt on the flanks when dominant in coloration, as well as a a yellow shine on the chest. Normal colored individuals have red dots on the body, which intensify as the fish gets larger. You can also learn about breeding patterns and more in Melo Salazar article here in the site:

http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=402

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Rick Thibert
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:51 pm

Now, I'm getting confused,

Juan, could you please be clear as to which picture is the Rio San Antonio Panto please?
I have PM'd Dan Woodland & Rusty Wessel and asked them to assist us in the matter as well! :)

BC

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Juan Artigas
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Juan Artigas » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:21 am

Thanks you for your words, I quite enjoyed my talk for the BCA and the time I spent in England. I also gave a talk for the British Livebearer Association. Before I had been invited by my friend Derek Lambert (RIP) and Today's Fishkeeper magazine to talk about Thorichthys and Goodeids. In every case I enjoyed my visits.

Coming to the pantostictus, both fish in my opinion are riverine pantostictus from Rio Tamesí affluents. The fish with the red dots is in normal coloration and clearly shows the traits of the riverine fish from Rio Guayalejo (red dots and red base of anal fin). The fish without the red dots apparent (the one above) apparently is in a somewhat dominant coloration and it is harder to assess the exact locality where it comes from, as the cichlid known as Green labridens (Also a variation of riverine pantostictus anyways), endemic to Rio El Salto, looks quite similar when in dominant coloration. So it could either be a Green labridens or a fish from the same locality as the fish with the red dots apparent. Pictures of this fish in normal coloration would help to tell more precisely.
Juan Miguel Artigas
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Rick Thibert
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:32 am

Juan Artigas wrote: Pictures of this fish in normal coloration would help to tell more precisely.
I will endeavour to get some decent shots of them tonight! ;)

BC

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Ribstick
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Ribstick » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:46 pm

Don't know if these will help Juan. These are pictures from pantostictus from the same variation as the one in the first picture from BC. Think they will be to young to identify.
The first picture is the biggest and dominant fish in my group and is approximatively 6-7 cm.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

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Rick Thibert
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:10 pm

Here are some pics of the second fish, hereafter "Type 2"..........

(I apologize for the quality as they are cropped images as the fish wouldn't come to the front of the tank unfortunately).

Image
Image
Image
Image

BC

Michael Kwist
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Michael Kwist » Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:12 pm

Nice pic's and fish, BC

And the quality is good 8)
Greetings Michael.

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Rick Thibert
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:37 am

Just so I'm clear on this..............................

To summarize in simple terms:

Labridens Complex:

H. labridens "Media Luna" Common name: Yellow Labridens
H. sp. "White Labridens" Common names: "Tamul" or "Tamasopo Labridens" "Black and White Labridens"
H. pantostictus Lacustrine form numerous variants
H. pantostictus Riverine form / numerous variants
H. pantostictus Riverine form Common Name: "Blue Labridens"
H. pantostictus Riverine form Common Name: "Green Labridens"
H. steindachneri

I know there will be many variations I haven't included here, but am I correct in identifying all the main fish assigned to the labridens group correctly.


Where applicable I've used collection points in the names. As I understand it, the labridens complex is likely to be reworked in the not too distant future and it is likely they will become separate species at this point.

Your help please!

BC

Bas Pels
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Bas Pels » Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:41 am

I think H bartoni is still missing - but I could not say whether this species is due to be splitted or not

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