Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Discussion about cichlids from Central America
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Rick Thibert
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Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:18 pm

Panto or Labridens............
100_3833.jpg
100_3827.jpg
BC
Last edited by Juan Artigas on Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Add link as attachment

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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Juan Artigas » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:17 pm

It is certainly the riverine form of Herichthys pantostictius. Dots on the head, red and blue on the fins and the red color of the scaless area behind the pectoral fins are some of the traits that indicate it.
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Joe Middleton » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:24 pm

I thought pantostictus have a bluish region to the gills?
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:34 am

The only reason I questioned it was because of the Don Conkel book on CA cichlids shows a H. labridens looking exactly like my Pantos do now.

This is a video of their parents if it helps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4jI90ux ... roject.php

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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Juan Artigas » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:37 am

That is understandable because Taylor & Miller in 1983 established H. pantostistus as limited to the laggons near the Panuco river mouth, around the type locality. All riverine populations at the time were considered geographical variations of H. labridens. Conkel's book was of the time and influenced by information from Dr. Robert Miller. I have published that in fact Herichthys pantostictus from the type locality corresponds to a lacustrine population of the species likely derived from the close riverine populations (the one in your pictures) found in all lower Panuco system affluents in several geographic variations (and probably a couple of new species). H. labridens is limited to the upper Rio Tampaon, with two geographical variations, the riverine found in Rio Verde and Santa Maria and the lacustrine (from the type locality again) found in the Rioverde valley in Central San Luis Potosi. A locality at 1,000 meters over sea level.

Yes Joe correct, H. pantostictus may have a bluish region on the gills but not in all moods or all populations.

p.d. Please do use attachments for pictures instead to links to external sites
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:22 pm

Thanks for the clarification Juan!

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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Joe Middleton » Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:32 pm

Juan Artigas wrote:I have published that in fact Herichthys pantostictus from the type locality corresponds to a lacustrine population of the species likely derived from the close riverine populations (the one in your pictures) found in all lower Panuco system affluents in several geographic variations (and probably a couple of new species). H. labridens is limited to the upper Rio Tampaon, with two geographical variations, the riverine found in Rio Verde and Santa Maria and the lacustrine (from the type locality again) found in the Rioverde valley in Central San Luis Potosi. A locality at 1,000 meters over sea level.
Where is this document located? Does the fish in the rivers key out to pantostictus?

Additionally, is the H. pantostictus in the rivers the fish that one would find in mass quantity at the Tamasopo falls as "black and white labridens," in 2001?
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:02 am

http://www.oddballexpress.co.uk/phpBB2/ ... 0551#10551

From the above thread, please find some additional Pantostictus photogrpaphs. Comments welcome as to their type locallity, etc.

Thanks in advance!

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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:18 am

Can anyone identifty them as two separate type locallity?

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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:30 am

Can anyone tell me what the difference is between these two forms of Pantostictus please?

Pantostictus, one pic of each variety for comparison:
Image
Image

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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Tom Williams » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:58 am

Can anyone identify these please (Juan I was thinking you may be able to) I have been told they are riverine Pantostictus but would like it confirmed. Sorry for teh quality of the photos.

Image
Image
Image
Image

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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Juan Artigas » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:53 am

Tom,

They certainly look like riverine H. pantostictus but I am not familiar with that black pattern on the rear part of the flanks. Do you have more information about them?
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Tom Williams » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:24 am

All I know is that they came from a reputable source in the UK and I think he got them from Rapps although i may be wrong. They are very young at the moment maybe 4 cm total length. Could this be remants of juvenille colouration? I wish I could tell you more.

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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:35 pm

Juan/Tom,

The fish in this picture are from this pair in the video links below:
Image
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4jI90uxLnI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI2s943gKTs
They came into the UK via Jeff Rapps as Labridens on one shipment and another species (forgot which) on a later shipment. The two fish were ID'd by Juan M. for the then, current owner, as H. Pantostictus riverine.

While the parents of this fish (now deceased) came in on a totally separate consignment.
Image

I don't know if this is helpful in anyway or not?

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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Juan Artigas » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:51 pm

These fish are certainly the riverine H. pantostictus.
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:36 pm

Juan Artigas wrote:These fish are certainly the riverine H. pantostictus.
Which? The example on the top and also in the video?

What about the other picture, the one with more black?

I've e-mailed Jeff R and asked him to chime in on this thread.

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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Juan Artigas » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:40 pm

They both are, Herichthys pantostictus, the riverine form.
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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Rick Thibert » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:05 am

Thank you Juan!

I've already had a quick reply from Jeff R. with regard to the collection point or supply of these Pantos with the black down the flanks. I quote his reply via e-mail.

"Cheers Rick
I don't know which river they were collected from. As I
recall, they all hail from a fairly restricted drainage
basin.
Jeff"


Would it be acceptable to keep the two together and use them to mix the genes or would you try to keep each variant separate? Lastly, is there a lot of diversity of these fish in their natural habitat?

Thanks again Juan! :)

BC

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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Lisachromis » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:39 am

Personally I'd keep the locales pure. Sometimes different locales end up being different species later down the road. That said, not everyone wants to do that. If they are combined, you need to sell any fry as Herichthys pantostictus "aquarium strain".

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Re: Pantostictus ............ ??????????

Post by Juan Artigas » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:09 am

Those fish must come from Rusty Wessel (He sells fish to Jeff Rapps) and probably me but knowing where they were collected is difficult. I would presume from some traits I see on them (yellow shine on chest scales and red dots on the back) that they are both fish from Rio Guayalejo affluents in Tamaulipas, but I can't be totally sure from a single mood picture. Evolution in the Panuco system is boiling and geographic variants although similar are particular, so any mix up of variants should just be exercised if you don't care at all to learn about those fish.
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