Mexico 2007 and 2008

Discussion about cichlids from Central America
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michi tobler
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Mexico 2007 and 2008

Post by michi tobler » Wed May 16, 2007 10:31 am

Hi all,

I had a great trip to Mexico and I thought I'd share some pix. Can't wait to go back in October;o)

Cheers, m

http://www.sulfide-life.info/mtobler/in ... Itemid=113 (not quite complete yet)


Edit: URL adjusted....
Last edited by michi tobler on Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Marko Lenac
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Post by Marko Lenac » Thu May 17, 2007 1:30 am

thanks for sharing! strange body shape of that maculipinnis
Image

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Florent
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Post by Florent » Thu May 17, 2007 6:59 am

Hi Michi,

Are you sure for the Parachromis species ?

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michi tobler
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Post by michi tobler » Thu May 17, 2007 8:14 am

Hi Florent,

actually you caught me on the spot.... I didn't really thik about it since P. friedrichtshalii is the only native Parachromis in the area. But I should have remembered that other Parachromis are introduced in the area... unfortunately I missed checking the key characteristics...

Cheers, m
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Grummie2
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Post by Grummie2 » Thu May 17, 2007 8:19 am

Great pics !! That Belonesox female is a beauty! Any other pics of those 'cave mollies' ?
Graham

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michi tobler
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Post by michi tobler » Thu May 17, 2007 1:37 pm

Hi Graham,

here a picture:

Image

Pretty cool fish;o)

Cheers, m
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Michael Kwist
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Post by Michael Kwist » Thu May 17, 2007 1:46 pm

The cave mollies look strange but verry intresting to i have never seen this before only blind cave anstyax fasciatus mexcianus

Great pictures ! i like the robertsoni and mexicana 8)
Greetings Michael.

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Grummie2
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Post by Grummie2 » Thu May 17, 2007 3:26 pm

Thanks Michi, I've never seen these before, they're very strange creatures, what's their latin name ?. Are they of any interest to the aquarium hobby?
Graham

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Post by michi tobler » Thu May 17, 2007 4:31 pm

Hi Graham,

scietifically they are referred to as a distinct population of Poecilia mexicana. We are doing quite some work right now on these fish and we also have an eye on the taxonomic status of these fish. They are easy to breed like other mollies. At least in Germany and the US, these fish were kept by hobbyists before. Due to the lack of color thought most people find them rather boring;o)

Cheers, m

PS: I added some more pix... I have to stop now and do some real work...
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Post by andregurov » Thu May 17, 2007 9:34 pm

That T. helleri is huge! Beautiful photos - very crisp and colorful.

J
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Juan Artigas
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Post by Juan Artigas » Fri May 18, 2007 12:53 pm

Wonderful pictures Michi! The Parachromis is actually Parachromis managuensis apparently introduced by the then "Secretaria de Pesca" (Fisheries ministery) back in the 1970's. I was told this fact by officials of the ministery back in early 1980's. Although in spite of my search I have never been able to find any more information about it, including why to introduce that species when another similar one is found native. This has always been a great mistery to me.
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bobsvinyl
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Post by bobsvinyl » Sat May 19, 2007 10:38 pm

That's some wound on the lengtinosum. :shock: Just goes to show you how tough cichlids are. Great pictures.

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Aquamojo
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Post by Aquamojo » Sun May 20, 2007 4:51 pm

Michi,

Where in Mexico were the Parachromis collected?

Beautiful fish. Very nice selection of fish.

Mo
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Paulo José Alves
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Post by Paulo José Alves » Mon May 21, 2007 9:09 am

HI


Great pictures! About the magnificent specimens of Poecilia, the P. petenensis should be called of P. Kykesis, I supose you called it that name because it was caught in freshwater and had a big fin and it wasn´t P. velifera. P. petenensis is a small fin species and exists more to the south. Actually the existence of P. kykesis so to the north is surprising. Is P. shenops still a valid species?
Did any of these fish got to the USA ?
All The Best
Paulo José

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Post by michi tobler » Mon May 21, 2007 5:28 pm

Hi all,

thanks for your comments!

@Juan: Thanks for the correct ID of the Parachromis. Indeed it's a little puzzling that the species was introduced there when a close relative already occurred. Maybe it is a consequence of the research done on P. managuensis as a target species for aquaculture. In several Latin American countries there were efforts to cultivate the species.

@Mo: I collected the Parachromis on a creek between Teapa and Pichucalco in Tabasco. Quite some fish made it back, most of them, however, in formalin or ethanol... I only brrought four Chuco and several P. mexicana from different locations... I have to play along the rules and I just don't have the space anyway:(

@Paulo: I'm aware of Poeser's P. kykesis work... just as others I'm not fully convinced what to make out of it (see Meyer, M. K., K. Schneider, A, C. Radda, B. Wilde and M. Schartl 2004 A new species of Poecilia, subgenus Mollienesia, from upper río Cahabón system, Guatemala, with remarks on the nomenclature of Mollienesia petenensis Günther, 1866 (Teleostei: Cyprinodontiformes: Poeciliidae). Zool. Abh., Staat. Mus. Tierk. Dresden v. 54: 145-154.). I called it P. petenensis because it clearly keyed out as such and not as P. velifera (using the Miller key). The occurence that far north is not really surprising but actually well documented (see Miller 2005).

Whether P. sphenops is currently a valid species is actually a very good question. I don't have a good answer. All I can say is that some populations clearly key out as P. mexicana and some as P. sphenops. HOWEVER, the current distinction of the two species is based on - how should I say - kind of wacky traits... recent taxonomic work unfortunately did not profoundly increase our knowlege on molly diversity and rather added quite a bid to the general confusion, not only on regard to P. mexicana and P. sphenops but also in regard to the many other Central American mollies. The situation is admittedly quite complex. I have a fairly good sampling of mollies in South Tabasco and North Chiapas and hell, there is a lot of variation. We're working to understand this variation in a phylogenetic context, but there's still quite a way to go. Doing the same for the shortfin mollies of Central America would be a really cool project that is on my extended list of wanna do's;o) Anyway, as long as we only look at teeth and scale counts, there is no way to understand the mollies... so from my side no deeper understanding in the case of P. sphenops and P. mexicana;o)

Thanks to all for the feedback.

Cheers, m
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Post by Thomas Andersen » Tue May 22, 2007 3:07 am

Great photo's Michi!

Speaking of mollies, where does Poecilia salvatoris - the Liberty Molly - fit in this picture?

All the best, Thomas

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Post by Paulo José Alves » Tue May 22, 2007 8:22 am

Dear Michi

Thanks for your interesting reply. I was puzzled by you saying that you came to identify Poecilia petenensis by its characteristics, however the specimen in the picture has a big fin and it has been clear, at least here in Europe, for the last few years that the real P. petenensis is a small fin species, so your specimen should be P. kykesis(or something like it).
P. salvatoris, aparently, is a form or something very near, of P. gilli.
All The Best
Paulo José

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Post by Juan Artigas » Tue May 22, 2007 1:21 pm

Thomas,

As far as I know, there are not Poecilia salvatoris in México. As Michi says, Mollie taxonomy is a field of opportunities. Just as an example; I remember Poecilia that in my opinion keyed out as Poecilia salvatoris in North West Costa Rica, those were referred to as Poecilia mexicana in Bussing book on Costa Rican fish.
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Post by michi tobler » Thu May 24, 2007 2:02 pm

Hi all,

well... after Poeser P. salvatoris is a synonym to P. gillii... but I don't really dare to even have an opinion. The P. "salvatoris" from Honduras I own look quite different from the P. gillii that I collected in Costa Rica. I just don't know. What I learned from the mollies in Tabasco: Until I measure by myself I just don't know (and even if I measure...).

Cheers, m

PS: Just because we're talking about mollies: http://www.springerlink.com/content/d04744074548k511/
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Post by dandempsey » Sat May 26, 2007 4:00 pm

Michi, are you keeping these fish on campus in Norman, or are they in your private collection now? I would love to be able to see these fish if the student body is welcome to view them.

Boomer Sooner.

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