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which Thorichthys is this?

Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:22 am
by wimkouwe
Hi all,
A year ago we purchased a couple of Firemouth lookalikes with black throats, which initially appeared to resemble Th.passionis.
This was in The Netherlands (shop called Verloop, in Boskoop).

As they grew up, they did develop a red throat as Th meeki, but still with a large black blotch on the throat area.
I guess it was Th. meeki after all (?), but does anyone know what variety it may be?

In the mean time we have quite a lot of little ones too...

Many thanks!
Wim Kouwe

Re: which Thorichtys is this?

Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:42 pm
by River
THIS IS A HYBRID!
(Thorichthys meeki Angeles X Thorichthys probably maculipinnis).

Thorichthys meeki Angeles is a newly discovered variant of the fire throat cichlid and is distinguished by its large amount of melanin-chromatophores. This gives the fish a very dark appearance. The fish came by coinsidence to Holland. I have written an article about it but it is so far only published in the Dutch language. This winter I will try to make an English translation, And I wil send it to J.M.Artigas. The article describes the species, told about the discovery in a Dutch aquarium shop and subsequently the search for the origin of these fish.

To day Thorichthys meeki Angeles is bred in abundance in the Netherlands but now we also see the first Hybrids appear on the market. Unfortunate.

This is how Thorichthys meeki Angeles looks like
Michel Keijman has made a beautiful photo shoot of this fish.
M.K.7.JPG

Re: which Thorichtys is this?

Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:43 pm
by wimkouwe
River,
I see the likeness of the black belly with the Angeles, but the rest of the body isn't nearly as black.

Why do you think of a hybrid with Th maculipinnis? That appears to have a quite different body shape than the meeki's?
Could it not be a Th meeki variety from a location close to the Angeles?

I add some more pics of the same fish. I have no pics of the offspring but they have a quite uniform appearance similar to the parents.

Wim

Re: which Thorichtys is this?

Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:25 pm
by Meeki67
Sorry, i'm not agrre with River. There is black meeki coming from rio mopan. And we can find this in german specialist central american fish :
Image

I don't see wich hybridation can give black to a meeki. The only thori with black is the pasionis and the black is not the place where your fish a black zone.

I try to find wehere is located angeles or rio angels ... I try to used information in the dutch item without success. You will find detail of the research there :
http://cichlidamerique.bb-fr.com/t2321p ... ht=angeles

It's in french but there is map to locate rio mamantel.

Re: which Thorichtys is this?

Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:27 pm
by Meeki67
You will find in this item :
http://cichlidamerique.bb-fr.com/t4470- ... ht=dolores

Two pcitures of Meeki dolores from rio mopan who look like yours. Meeki has a lot of possible colour variation.

Re: which Thorichtys is this?

Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:30 pm
by wimkouwe
Dear meeki67,
I agree, the pictures of Th meeki Dolores Rio Mopan look exactly like ours.

Thank you very much for solving the mystery for us!
BTW, don't worry. They are not in the same basin as the Geophagus megasema as in the pic any more. This guys just had to live their for a while because his little girlfriend had dislocated his lower jaw during a marital discussion..

Wim

Re: which Thorichtys is this?

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:39 am
by Piotr Koba
They indeed look like the Mopan meeki, the only curious thing is the [large] number of blue spots on their cheeks/operculums. But given the variability within the species this still shouldn't be the decisive to call these hybrids.

Re: which Thorichtys is this?

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:31 am
by River
Hello Wim

Becauce I saw youre advertisement on http://www.marktplaats.nl/ until yesteday, I guess you probably do not want to hear my input;) But for the rest I do it anyway.
I see the likeness of the black belly with the Angeles, but the rest of the body isn't nearly as black.
The Angeles delivers only half of the genes. The gene responsible for the black color and the mutation causes melanism ,always begins in the abdominal region, and that's no coincidence. This has probably nothing to do with the benefits of the black color, but rather more because of the disadvantages that the fish experiecing of the red color. usually this has to do with predation. The mutation melanism belongs in nature to the most common mutations. Therefore this is for the meeki,on his path of evolution, the first oppertunity to get rid of his red jacket. Therefore, the color begins at the point where normal meeki 's are red and this only happens when the fish are sexually mature .
Why do you think of a hybrid with Th maculipinnis? That appears to have a quite different body shape than the meeki's?
That’s Exactly the reason. Your meeki has the round head from the helleri complex. And from that complex T.aureus T.maculipinnis comes the closest. A cros with T.aureus belongs in my opinion also to the possibilities, but because of the numerous blue spots on the head I think previously T.Maculipinnis.
Could it not be a Th meeki variety from a location close to the Angeles?
Of Course . All we can think of is possible . However, I argue from probability. It was pure coincidence that T.Angeles 9,000 miles from his home turned up in a small country called Holland .But what do you say when the neighboring population also pops up 9,000 miles from home right in the same small country called Holland?

But of course, coincidence exist;)

Re: which Thorichtys is this?

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:49 am
by River
Hello Meeki67

First of all, thank you for sharing the information about the meeki from rio Mopan. This was new for me and as a Thorichthys-fan it’s always nice to learn new things about this wonderful Genus.

But secondly, I must also express some criticism here. Don’t you think “sharing your own information is something else as sharing other people’s information?”. That’s my article you throwing on the internet here. I even told in my previous contribution I was planning to translate it this winter. You have PM.

Nevertheless I wil clear some ambiguities here;

The picture you show is Thorichthys meeki Angeles . I know my own baby’s. I lived about 10 years in a kind of symbiosis with these fish ;) The first Angeles were sold in 2006, so it is not surprising that a German specialist has them.
I don't see wich hybridation can give black to a meeki
Hybridization does not bring the black in a meeki . So does nature. There are now two cases known .
The habitat of the Rio mamantel creates the conditions conducive to the emergence of melanism and the Rio Mopan does the same with the meeki in the Rio Mopan. We have now only to find out what those circumstances are ;) The most obvious explanation ofcourse is the presence or increased success rate of a predator . Red is a striking color. And , as such, does not in all cases favorably for the wearer;)
I try to find wehere is located angeles or rio angels
There is no rio Angeles. The fish is named after a very small village in the vicinity of the capture site called "Felipe Angeles" There was a sign along the road nearby the capture site that said “Puente Felipe Angeles”. It seemed to me a good habit to named fish by their Origin.
Angeles1.jpg
Angeles2.JPG
Angeles3.JPG
Angeles4.jpg
Nothing is as changeable as the color of a fish.
It's under the influence of age, mood, time, environment, and they even comunicate with colors.

Re: which Thorichtys is this?

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:08 am
by Meeki67
River wrote:This was new for me and as a Thorichthys-fan it’s always nice to learn new things about this wonderful Genus.
If you are fan of Thorichthys, I can invite you to obtain our DVD from Guatemala. You will see a lot of Thorichthys from rarely visited location.
River wrote: “sharing your own information is something else as sharing other people’s information?”.
I understand your message and I can understand that you can read french. But I mentionned, I used your information after having obtain the right from you. In my page, you will find this in french : 'voilà des photos , j'ai demandé le droit de les utiliser'. It's mean that pictures are not mine and I receive the right to use them.

River wrote:So it is not surprising that a German specialist has them.
I will increase. It's a good new for hobbyist.
River wrote:There is no rio Angeles. The fish is named after a very small village in the vicinity of the capture site called "Felipe Angeles" There was a sign along the road nearby the capture site that said “Puente Felipe Angeles”. It seemed to me a good habit to named fish by their Origin.
That what I found withe the information in your article. I'm waiting for your translation. In 2012, we were close but we don't have time to find them.

Re: which Thorichtys is this?

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:17 am
by Meeki67
River wrote:belongs in my opinion also to the possibilities, but because of the numerous blue spots on the head I think previously T.Maculipinnis.
Blue dot on meeki head can occur :
Image
Image

But effectively not so many as what we can see on the picture shown at the beginning.

Re: which Thorichtys is this?

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:07 pm
by River
If you are fan of Thorichthys, I can invite you to obtain our DVD from Guatemala. You will see a lot of Thorichthys from rarely visited location.
I am very interested Meeki. Where can I buy it?

Re: which Thorichthys is this?

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:17 pm
by dogofwar
Isn't it safer to assume that a fish is a hybrid or a captive bred fish of unknowable lineage than to assume that it's a pure representative of one collection point or another?

Matt

Re: which Thorichthys is this?

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:51 pm
by wimkouwe
Dear River,
Don't worry, the add on Marktplaats will be relauched soon, now with a probable Rio Mopan Dolores origin because I still believe this is the most likely one.

I was looking in Google Earth locations of your Angeles and the Rio Mopan and noticed that they are on pretty similar settings at the base of the eastern Rockies foothills, only 300 km apart. As a geologist I think it is quite likely that the melanism gene in both localities could originate from a widespread common ancestor that lived in the coastal plain before it got uplifted, and that the population got separated due to later mountain uplifts in this geologically very active area.

As we all know melanism, albinism and other colour variations are really quite common in cichlids. These (in principle aberrant) colour varieties can co-exist in natural populations, usually as quite rare exceptions. But If a population becomes isolated the deviant colour variety may become dominant, in particular if it has some natural selection benefits where they live (e.g. the girls happen to like it, or you are less visible for predators, or they are discovered by some SE Asian breeders...).

I do think that your Angeles are a bit different than my meeki's. The body shape seems a bit higher, the face seems steeper, little/no blue specks. But also quite striking: they seem to have 2 vertical stripes, or 2 blotches. This is not something I see in mine, which have 1 blotch or 1 vertical stripe through the blotch.
The original description in Dutch states that the Angeles look exactly like regular meeki when young, and that the black appears only after a year or more. Mine had a black throat/gill area at 4 cm length, which made me think they could have been Th pasionis..

Of course I cannot exclude that mine may be some cross of different meeki varieties, but I doubt whether it was 'Angeles'. They will have come from large a fish wholesale dealer in The Netherlands, as this show only purchases from professional sources. These quite commonly from german suppliers. For instance, the imaged Geophagus megasema appears to have been bred by Jens Gottschalk in Germany, and then travelled via 2 shops (incl. Verduyn) and a private owner in the Netherlands to my aquarium.

I do not believe that my fish will be a hybrid of two species. Normally it is quite unlikely that hybrid fish will be 100% fertile, and mine do not seem to show any restrictions here.

It does seem that my pictures exxagerate the blue specks on the face and flanks a bit, in particular with flash. In the various pics I have found of Th maculipinnis their blue specks do seem a lot more dramatic than mine, while many Th meeki pics show blue specs similar to mine.

Many thanks for your thoughts, of course you are welcome to adopt a few of our babies so you can study them in the flesh... Just follow the Marktplaats lead when it re-appears :-)

Cheers,
Wim

Re: which Thorichthys is this?

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:57 pm
by wimkouwe
map showing similar geographic setting of Rio Mopan and Rio Mamantel ('Angeles')

Re: which Thorichthys is this?

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:13 pm
by newworldsss
Matt I think you are right on, I'm sure there are a few melanistic meeki out there, if you can pinpoint where a fish is from you have to be that good....even in a locale there is variation...

Re: which Thorichthys is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:26 am
by Nuchal Man
I have to agree with Matt and newworld. The fish photographed simply appear to have a melanin mutation. While some populations may be more likely than others to have this mutation, it is a fairly common mutation in fish. It would be really hard to pinpoint the collection locality for these just based on that character. If you don't know the exact provenance of your fish the safest and best practice is to just to say they are an aquarium strain.

Re: which Thorichthys is this?

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:23 pm
by River
I am also agree with Matt. When you don’t know the exact provenance, the safest is to talk about a aquarium strain. On the other hand, When you are fore sure you have a typical variation from a typical place you have the responsebility to keep them clean and pure.

I can not speak about the rio Mopan- meeki, this was new for me also (maybe Meeki67 can), but as regards of Thorichthys meeki Angeles I can say that the black color is certainly representative for the whole population. The First time the fishes were caught was in 1996. And not by some profit greedy trader, but by the chairman of the Dutch livebear association. He brought 5 meeki’s to Holland. And there was a lot of variation indeed but not in the basic color. They all grown black. This means that this was not a first mutation. At least one of the parents had to be black.

But on this moment you still could say, the chairman had the once in a lifetime luck, to caugth fortuitous the ofspring of a mutant. But this possibility definitely dissapears when he vissits the location again, five years later. In 2002, he brings 5 black meeki’s to Holland again. This means that the mutation melanism is intergrated in the whole population.

And now I stop with my contributions on this topic, otherwise I don’t have to translate anything anymore :wink:

Re: which Thorichthys is this?

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:07 pm
by meksjoef
If u are not sure wich variety it is, u should sell them as such...
Would be a shame when other pure populations got polluted with a hybrid or a different river variety.

Were did u buy this fish? Why i ask is because there arent a lot of pure strains in the Netherlands, apart from a few specialized stores, and a few hobbyists. Therefor it makes for me more sense that it is a hybrid then the strains mentioned before ;)