new here. and was wondering if anyone could i.d. fish

Discussion about cichlids from Central America
spaceman
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new here. and was wondering if anyone could i.d. fish

Post by spaceman » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:45 pm

so i got these fish four years ago. and have wondered what kind they are ever since. i was wondering if anyone could help. I've got a good idea about the female, but the male totally puzzles me. here are some pics. sorry im such a crappy photographer.

Image

Image

Image

Image

thanks, space. :D

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kubiak
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Post by kubiak » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:51 pm

Orange looks like a a. citrinellus to me(not 100% sure) and the other one like c. trimaculatum.
A momentary lapse of reason...

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spaceman
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Post by spaceman » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:26 pm

the Trimac was my guess for the female too. but as for the male i have thought Midas but the darker colouring is more pink than orange although i have seen pink Midas. but the iridescent spots on the dorsal, tail, and anal fins kinda troughs me off. i think your right on the money with your id and thank you for helping confirm my suspicions. :D

space.

dan
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Post by dan » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:47 pm

i agree with the Trimac but i think you've got a "flower horn" type in that orange one.

spaceman
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Post by spaceman » Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:21 pm

i once was told it could be a golden dempsey cross, but i thought "there was no such fish as a golden Dempsey". i had also thought hybrid. but wasn't sure. but if it is a hybrid. what could be the contributors of this hybrid? and would he be reproductively viable?

again, thanks for the response.

space.

Bas Pels
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Post by Bas Pels » Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:34 pm

As you suggested yourself the orange fish is most likeluy much citrinellum (or labiatum, they look very similar) with a certain percentage of another species, explaining the fins.

The black greenish fish looks a lot like trimaculatus - I know no other species with a pink belly that looks even vaquely similar, but the black woulds suggest breeding behaviour / agression.

However, as this fish looks very submissive, and damaged to me, I can not explain where the dark colors can come from - unless from an other species somewhere in its ancestry.

Bas

spaceman
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Post by spaceman » Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:52 pm

yes she was injured. and has healed up since then and no she is not very submissive. but in fact, quiet aggressive. towards her tank mate, the larger orange one so they both take the occasional stab at each other. i think he got her by the snout and give her a shake. i figure it's nothing but breeding behavior.

good eye though.
space

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Ken Davis
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Post by Ken Davis » Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:13 am

Those are both flowerhorns. Male has citrinellum backgroiund, female trimac, but neither is a pure species. I sure they would breed and produce more mutt fish. Ken
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Post by Dan Woodland » Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:20 am

This is a perfect example of why you SHOULD NOT cross-breed animals (called aminals) or keep a spawn if you even think they aren't pure. It's also a great reason not to "just grow them to see what they look like". Chances are you grow them up someone will want them or you won't have the heart to destroy them!

Dan

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chc
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Post by chc » Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:27 am

Good point Dan!

spaceman
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Post by spaceman » Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:57 pm

DESTROY THEM ???. are you crazy? they are unique, they are beautiful. that's no good point! there is a place for every one, and every fish in this hobby. and for people to turn their nose up at them is an absurd thing. it's ignorant of fact, and quite frankly bigoted. if they are hybrids, i have a moral obligation. that i do my best to keep them, like I've always done.

i have read posts of plans to crossbreed separate species on this very forum. by it's very members, thus planning to create "MUTS"

hybridization of separate species is a natural thing, occurring in nature right now!! (ex.) those many difrent types of green terror, what ever the genus name may be. how do we know that they haven't hybridized in the wild at some time, or have ben separated by some natural event or boundary. forcing the species to either hybridize or adapt to changes in their environment, or face extinction. this could be the explaining reason that there is such a diverse spread of difrent types of cichlids in the world, only separated by about fifty kilometers of river or lake. there are so many examples of this, and way too many to list.

the scientific term for this phenomenon is "speciation through hybridization" try goggeling the term and i assure you, will find ample info upon the subject.

before one should claim they are an expert in the field of keeping cichlids
they should be accepting of all phenomena, that occurs within any and all species of cichlids.

i am grateful that you were able to i.d. these fish of mine. i had no idea they were so unique, and thus so valuable. i look forward to reading, and interacting with the informative posts that this forum has to offer.

spaceman

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Post by Dave Schumacher » Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:56 pm

Whoa! Don't take it so personal. If you look again at those other threads about cross breeding, you'll notice the same thing said every time. While hybridization produces some interesting looking fish, it is far more damaging than you realize. This goes way beyond the aquarium hobby. While I agree that you have a certain duty to care for an individual fish, I believe that the possibility of destroying an entire species should take precedence. By breeding these fish, you are going to have countless fry that will need a place to live. Eventually, you will run out of room to house them, and you will be forced to do one of two things: kill them, or give them to others. Even if you are responsible and let them know that these are hybrids, eventually, the others that now have your fish are going to have to go down the same path and find a way to get rid of all those fish. It has to stop somewhere, or eventually, the hobby is flooded with hybrids.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you kill your fish. I personally feel that the best thing you could do is keep them in separate tanks so that they can not breed.

Just my 2 cents.
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Bas Pels
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Re: it is i the spaceman !!

Post by Bas Pels » Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:11 pm

spaceman wrote:DESTROY THEM ???. are you crazy? they are unique, they are beautiful. that's no good point! there is a place for every one, and every fish in this hobby.
Apparently your hobby is not mine :twisted:

Hybrids disgust me, and I swear, I never willlingly have taken been quilty of in any distribution of hybrids - not between species, neither between varieties

I will not go into the unquoted rest of what you wrote, I think my opinion is claer

spaceman
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Post by spaceman » Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:16 pm

so what your saying is that hybrid species do not happened in the wild and that hybrids disgust you!

do you dismiss the point i made.

do you admit and believe that species are threatened by hybridization and not by the ongoing pollution and destruction of their environment.

hybridization can be viewed as detrimental as well as beneficial.

just know that hybridization is more wide spread than you may think. and is not a thing to be stood against.

do you say that difrent species of cichlids should not be kept together? because i thought that this was beneficial to their "mental" health

it is apparent that there are some very misinformed ideas about your collected opinions upon hybrids.

and that disgusts me!!

every hobbyist who breeds fish is faced with the decision to sell or cull the brood that is produced!!!! it has no relevance whether they are hybrids or not.

i want to ask if the poster that claims that hybrids disgusts them. did they even try to look up the term "speciation through hybridization" and give it a shot, before the individual decided to post such misinformed and offencive opinions. as the individual so diligently has done.

so what ever the side of the metaphoric fence you stand, it takes a true expert to accept the reality of hybrids. except and respect them for the beautiful creatures that they are.

if fish were not given the option to hybridize they would run out of viable genetic diversity. and the species as a whole would succumb to sickness in the wild. and there are examples of that occurring in the wild too. thus wiping out dead end species with extinction.

i am a responsible hobbyist and find it extremely offencive to have that fact questioned upon misinformed opinions.

it is your right to have a misinformed opinion, as ignorance truly is bliss. it is easier to cry "witch" than it is to learn what it is you talk about.

it is also your right to stand for species purity. but to act as though your better than someone else, and to make derogatory comments is an indication of your true maturity and mentality. and you will continue to find that people take offence at this type of attitude.

respectfully

space.

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Re: it is i the spaceman !!

Post by Lisachromis » Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:33 pm

spaceman wrote:so what your saying is that hybrid species do not happened in the wild and that hybrids disgust you!
Hybrids do happen in the wild, and that's not disputed. However, that being said, hybrids do not happen often in the wild. They do, however, happen A LOT more in hobbyists tanks since they often stick fish together that would never be together in the wild. In the wild these particular fish would not breed together (either through not living in the same area, or even just by behaviour).
do you admit and believe that species are threatened by hybridization and not by the ongoing pollution and destruction of their environment.
Species are affected by both. In fact, in Lake Victoria, many hybrids have arisen BECAUSE of the pollution. These fish had females that chose their mates based on colour. After the lake was highly polluted, it was hard for these females to pick males based on colours, since they were harder to see.
do you say that difrent species of cichlids should not be kept together? because i thought that this was beneficial to their "mental" health
You have to be careful what you keep together. One, to stop hybrids from occuring if possible. Two, so that one species does not harm or kill the others. It would be silly to keep Dovii with Neolamprologus multifasciatus for example. It would provide the dovii with a little snack though.
it is apparent that there are some very misinformed ideas about your collected opinions upon hybrids.
I think you may want to check out other peoples opinions on the matter and not just jump up in defense of your fish since you felt that they got attacked. I don't like hybrids (especially ones created by people ON PURPOSE). I don't suggest killing them. I do, however, suggest that they are well kept, but in such a manner that they cannot breed.
every hobbyist who breeds fish is faced with the decision to sell or cull the brood that is produced!!!! it has no relevance whether they are hybrids or not.
I'd be more likely to cull hybrid fry than any other fry I produced. I'd be splitting apart whoever was breeding together who shouldn't be. I've gotten rid of fish because the males became hyperdominant and wanted to spawn with all the females, regardless of their species.
i want to ask if the poster that claims that hybrids disgusts them. did they even try to look up the term "speciation through hybridization" and give it a shot, before the individual decided to post such misinformed and offencive opinions. as the individual so diligently has done.
That term deals with naturally occuring hybrids. It does not deal with tank created ones. It has no bearing in this discussion.
so what ever the side of the metaphoric fence you stand, it takes a true expert to accept the reality of hybrids. except and respect them for the beautiful creatures that they are.
It does not take an expert to accept the reality of hybrids. They are a proven part of the fishkeeping experience. One that should not be promoted in any way. But as I said above, if you have a hybrid, take care of it. Just don't breed it.
if fish were not given the option to hybridize they would run out of viable genetic diversity. and the species as a whole would succumb to sickness in the wild. and there are examples of that occurring in the wild too. thus wiping out dead end species with extinction.
Then explain how thousands of species of fish survive quite well without hybridizing. All you really need is a lot of individuals of that species. You don't necessarily require a influx of outside genetics to keep a species healthy in the wild.
i am a responsible hobbyist and find it extremely offencive to have that fact questioned upon misinformed opinions.
Noone questioned whether or not you were a responsible hobbyist. But you do have to remember that there are MANY opinions in this world and people are going to voice them whether or not you agree with what they say. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them misinformed. It just means they believe something different than you do.
it is your right to have a misinformed opinion, as ignorance truly is bliss. it is easier to cry "witch" than it is to learn what it is you talk about.

it is also your right to stand for species purity. but to act as though your better than someone else, and to make derogatory comments is an indication of your true maturity and mentality. and you will continue to find that people take offence at this type of attitude.

respectfully

space.
But that's opinion. They may have the opinion that you're misinformed. It all boils down to what you believe on this topic. If you like your fish and want to be a responsible (in my opinion!) hobbyist, you'll take care of your fish the best way you know how, and not breed them. Others would take this further and want you to destroy the fish. But that's their opinion on the matter.

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Post by Paulo José Alves » Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:06 am

Hi


The reaction of spaceman is typical of those that are not in tune with what are the established positions of cichlid breeders about hybrids and about anything else in the cichlid world. The imediate rejection of hybrids is not very well understood or accepted by the comon aquarium owner. Some time ago I had a similar discussion with a person who thought that the hybrids that he had were a new species and that they were valuable, when I told him the truth I was treated from xenophob down... It´s of course a position taken from ignorance.
Unfortunatelly hybrids are a plague that are more and more comon and the main propagators are the amateur breeders that many times inocently sell or give what they should keep for themselves or destroy.
In Nature hybrids are exceptionally rare. There is no proof that hybridization plays any place in evolution.
All The Best
Paulo José

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Post by Willem Heijns » Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:10 am

there's two sides to this topic:

1. are the shown fish hybrids?
2. and if they are, what about it?

1. it's suprising to notice that the fish have been declared hybrids so easily. firstly there are just a few pictures upon which to base our judgment. secondly cichlids can be variable in their coloration, especially citrinellus types. I believe the coloration of the fins in the orange fish are taken as an indication of a hybrid. here's a picture of a wildcaught "citrinellus":

Image

notice the speckling on the unpaired fins.

and a xantoristic "citrinellus"

Image
there are still some speckles to be seen on the fins.

so I am not so sure about spaceman's orange fish.


the trimaculatus could also very well be pure. here's a picture of one that I kept decades before people even started thinking about flowerhorns:

Image
just compare it to spaceman's picture.



the second point is more phylosophical. I believe it all boils down to the question why we are in the hobby. there might be many reasons but in this topic two stand out:
1: hobbyists who want to imitate a piece of nature in their homes and try to get as close as possible.
2. hobbyists who just like beautiful fish with no more to it than that.

the first category (to which I count myself) will go a long way to keep things pure. that applies to fish as well as to other aspects of keeping them (i.e. tank decoration, water chemistry, etc). they won't hybridize cichlids or even interbreed populations. and when acquiring fish they want to be sure about their purity.
the second category iss less stringent in all this. if they like a flowerhorn, they will take it. if they want to breed them, they will. if spontaneous hybrids occur in their tanks they are interested in what will come out of it.

either category is to be respected. there are no ethical objections to hybridizing. people who keep birds know all about that. even the plants in your homes are likely to be hybrids or at least artificial "improvements".

problems arise when the two worlds come together. it is very difficult if not impossible to keep track of the hybrids once they enter the trade (commercially or within the hobby). so the purists can never be sure of what they are buying. therefore they resist anything leading to the introduction of "impure" cichlids into the hobby. there is no ready solution to this problem. all we can do is to try and keep communicating about what happens in our tanks and to which category we reckon ourselves. we might do a poll on this.
Slàinte mhath!

Uilleam

spaceman
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Post by spaceman » Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:39 am

i verry well agree!

i just felt attacked for keeping hybrids, and breeding hybrids and sort of still feel that way. flower horns are a big legitimate part of the hobby, and this is not left to opinion. this is why i say it is misinformed. just because you refuse to except that hybrids are an IMPORTANT part of keeping cichlids, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. that hybrids should be frowned upon.

i had a strong hunch that these were in fact a type of flower horn. i will keep them and if they breed, i will do with them what i will. whether i sell them as flowerhorns or use them as feeders for my f1 kampampa colony. this is my decision. i truly did not come here to stir the pot, but since it was brought to my attention that hybrids were disgusting. i feel, that i as well as my choice in the way that i keep and choose my fish, were under some sort of attack.

i never expected any one to say that i and my fish are an example of what should not be done. and i find this offensive and yes, ignorant (misinformed). and i still believe that this is not a GOOD POINT.

i keep pure species. i have kept them for 20 years now, and thought that hybrids would be a nice change to the same old swing of things.

space.

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Re: it is i the spaceman !!

Post by Lisachromis » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:31 am

spaceman wrote:i verry well agree!

i just felt attacked for keeping hybrids, and breeding hybrids and sort of still feel that way. flower horns are a big legitimate part of the hobby, and this is not left to opinion. this is why i say it is misinformed. just because you refuse to except that hybrids are an IMPORTANT part of keeping cichlids, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. that hybrids should be frowned upon.

i had a strong hunch that these were in fact a type of flower horn. i will keep them and if they breed, i will do with them what i will. whether i sell them as flowerhorns or use them as feeders for my f1 kampampa colony. this is my decision. i truly did not come here to stir the pot, but since it was brought to my attention that hybrids were disgusting. i feel, that i as well as my choice in the way that i keep and choose my fish, were under some sort of attack.

i never expected any one to say that i and my fish are an example of what should not be done. and i find this offensive and yes, ignorant (misinformed). and i still believe that this is not a GOOD POINT.

i keep pure species. i have kept them for 20 years now, and thought that hybrids would be a nice change to the same old swing of things.

space.
No one said that you were the example of what should not be done. Several people did say that they believed you shouldn't breed the fish if they are hybrids. Honestly, you seem to think that an attack on the fish is an attack on you. Those are two different things. Obviously you are going to do whatever you like with the fish since they are yours. That's all you need to remember. You'll do what you think is right. Whether or not people on a forum like what you do is something else. Whether it matters to you or not is also another thing. At the very least you've brought out some interesting conversation.

Good luck with the fish.

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Post by Bas Pels » Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:09 am

Still I have one question.

On a flowerhorn forum my point of view would not be welcomed. I do not go to such sites, an my opinions are kept from thoise places.

In my opinion, it is hard not to notice this site is dedicated to the beauty of cichlids in their pure, unspoiiled form.

Perhaps that explains why the reactions were as they are

Bas

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