Guapotes from Panama.

Discussion about cichlids from Central America
Don Hiatt
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Guapotes from Panama.

Post by Don Hiatt » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:36 pm

Hi all,
I just found this pic on the web.

http://www.georgies-cichlids.com/SP%20P ... uapote.htm

I was under the impression that the species found in Lake Gatun was a Green Umbriferum. This picture looks like a green Parachromis.

I remember the species that was called "Cichlasoma" Sambu was collected years back. This appears to be the same fish that is now known as a Green Umbriferum.

I would like to hear what people think about this picture.

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Post by DJOHN13147 » Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:27 pm

I recall a post about those fish on another board a year or two back where the owner of that fish in the picture agreed the fish in the photo was likely a hybrid - I believe he originally purchased what he thought were "wild breeders" from an un-named dealer in NJ (not rapps)

Im 99.999% sure thats the guy/website/photo

Im pretty sure there was a lot of variation with the fry he bred...they all looked different..no consistency in the shape/size and color of the growouts

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Post by Don Hiatt » Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:11 pm

Then the species found in Gatun is an umbriferum?

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cichlid261
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Post by cichlid261 » Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:48 am

hello, there is well a guapote not identified in Panama...

find, i think, to J-C Nourissat and or Patrick Blanc

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Post by troskar » Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:16 am

A picture of a fish very similar to this one is found in the book 'Mittelamerika - Cichliden und lebendgebarende' by Hans J. Mayland. The place of capture was Rio Sambu in Darien in eastern Panama. The fish seems to have a more compact body than umbriferum. Maximum size is given as 60 cm.

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Post by Don Hiatt » Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:52 am

Hi cichlid261,
Where can I find the information about the unidentified guapote???
Does it appear to be a Parachromis species???

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cichlid261
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Post by cichlid261 » Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:10 am

hi Nandus,

there is some little information on this espéce of parachromis sp boca del toro that Jean-Claude Nourissat would have brought back in France, I had this information in the book cichlidés of Central America of Philippe Gibert and Bernard Gobeaux. here:

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Post by Norcal_Cichlid » Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:41 pm

How can I get my hands on that book?

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cichlid261
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Post by cichlid261 » Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:04 pm


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Philippe Burnel
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Post by Philippe Burnel » Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:05 am

to order, the best page is here:

http://www.francecichlid.com/pages/bulletin1.htm

20 E + 5 E for mailing it's not expensive.
I'll not add any comments about this book !

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Post by Marko Lenac » Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:35 am

great book! real advices from someone having the fish at home
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Florent
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Post by Florent » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:55 am

Nandus wrote:Hi cichlid261,
Where can I find the information about the unidentified guapote???
Does it appear to be a Parachromis species???
it's a Parachromis similar to Parachromis motaguensis, in my mind this fish was found in Costa Rica but maybe I'am wrong.

A friend have a pair, with Paratheraps synspilus, they seems to be shy. I try to get a picture.

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Having not seen the book or the fish...

Post by Joe Middleton » Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:52 pm

I did see a Parachromis species in the Rio Cana (or Rio Canaveral) as well as the Robalo, both Bocas del Toro tributaries. Based on its color pattern, I thought the fish to be the same as loisellei. I can try to find some old pictures and check again.
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Found One

Post by Joe Middleton » Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:04 pm

This is the Parachromis from the Rio Canaveral, taken with my old SLR, from the "boat trip" out of Chiriqui Grande. An interesting fish, but all I have is this old, low-resolution slide scan!


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Post by Don Hiatt » Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:41 am

Hi,
That's an interesting looking Parachromis. How big was that fish and did you bring any back??

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Post by Joe Middleton » Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:50 am

Nandus wrote:Hi,
That's an interesting looking Parachromis. How big was that fish and did you bring any back??
The fish was about three and a half inches long. We found it about three km upstream on the Rio Cana. I think one of our crew brought back four specimens and they were subsequently lost.

It was conjectured at the time that it was "probably" managuense (introduced as a food fish) but in retrospect I could beg to differ. I could see it as being a new species, but more specimens would have to be viewed. Ideally, I would love to see it underwater but the habitat it occupied was not condusive to easy snorkelling (swampy, silty, reedy).
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Joe Middleton
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Post by Joe Middleton » Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:04 am

troskar wrote:A picture of a fish very similar to this one is found in the book 'Mittelamerika - Cichliden und lebendgebarende' by Hans J. Mayland. The place of capture was Rio Sambu in Darien in eastern Panama. The fish seems to have a more compact body than umbriferum. Maximum size is given as 60 cm.
I know of several sources of the green umbriferus that are in the United States. You might try Jeff Rapps. The fish came from the Rio Nicanor and there are F1s available now. The Nicanor is along the northern fringe of the Tuyra-Chucanaque drainage.

This "green umbriferus" could be seen as different from the normal "blue" umbriferus due to its shorter body and slightly different color characteristics. Indeed, the spots on the body are pearly green instead of azure blue. There is a horizontal stripe on the side that is much more defined than that of the blue morph. Deep crimson spots on the head are also more prominent.

A natural range factor enters the picture here: the "green" umbie hails from the Pacific slope of Panama, in the Tuyra-Chucanaque drainage. I do not know if it occurs in the Chepo or other rivers to the west but it likely occurs no further west than Panama City itself. The "blue" umbie occurs from the Atlantic side of Panama down into Colombia. Lake Gatun is filled and drained by both the Panama Canal and the Rio Chagres -- it is an artificial impoundment created by damming the Rio Chagres to drive the canal's locks. I'm sure that water from it spills out of both the north (Atlantic) and south (Pacific) portals but since this occurs west of the oceanside Panama City I don't think that there is much of a chance for the blue and green umbies to be introduced to one another.

I am not sure where the notion that the "green" umbie or "green monster" (same fish) came out of Lake Gatun. I think this was stated in the "Cichlids of Central America" by Ad Konings, but the fish in question was not collected there. Instead, it came from the Rio "Sambu" which is, in earnest, a small tributary of the Rio Sabalo that drains into the Rio Tuyra estuary. Heiko Bleher's comment in his 90s-era TFH article that the fish of the Rio Sambu basin "are not found anywhere else" is ludicrous. All of the fish that he listed in that article are found in the Rio Tuyra basin, and throughout. The sole exception (this is way off topic here) are the Cryptoheros myrnae shown in the article, which he probably caught in Bocas del Toro but didn't want to tell anyone he'd been there (or, maybe that part of the article was edited out for brevity, in fairness to Mr. Bleher).

Summary: there is no green umbie in Lake Gatun -- if there is one, it is probably blue. There is no unindentified green monster in Panama, either, unless someone wanted to try to split the blue and green fish into separate species. Finally, both the green and blue fish are available for interested hobbyists.
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Re: Guapotes from Panama.

Post by Joe Middleton » Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:08 am

Nandus wrote:Hi all,
I just found this pic on the web.

http://www.georgies-cichlids.com/SP%20P ... uapote.htm

I was under the impression that the species found in Lake Gatun was a Green Umbriferum. This picture looks like a green Parachromis.
...I would like to hear what people think about this picture.
See previous post. I would like to know if the person who posted the photo obtained the locale data from his direct observation or from culling information from the sellers and books. This looks like umbriferum, but it is a little small. I suspect that it is the blue form, and not the green fish. The green fish's horizontal stripe is much more evident.
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Post by Don Hiatt » Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:39 am

I just happend upon this link while surfing the net. I have no idea what site it was linked to or who posted it. I posted this link because I felt this fish did not look like an Umbriferum, but rather more like a Parachromis type. I have kept the Blue Umbriferum, but never the green. From the pictures I have seen of the Green, I doubt the fish in question is one.

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Post by Joe Middleton » Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:00 pm

Nandus wrote:I just happend upon this link while surfing the net. I have no idea what site it was linked to or who posted it. I posted this link because I felt this fish did not look like an Umbriferum, but rather more like a Parachromis type. I have kept the Blue Umbriferum, but never the green. From the pictures I have seen of the Green, I doubt the fish in question is one.
Okie dokie.... 8)
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