Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

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winnyston
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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by winnyston » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:43 am

Hi Estelle

That is very interesting! Until now it's only the pair who is holding the larvae. I have a group of 9 fish so perhaps I will make the same observation.

My pair isn't swimming as a pair. The group is alsmost every time together and if the female and the male would not brood you wouldn't see that it is a pair. The behavior isn't "pair like" as I know it from other biparental species. But my Microdontistank is only 100x50x50 cm so perhaps it would be different if the tank would be bigger.

@ Fred

I 'm still trying to take a good picture but I have a lousy digicam. I also have e reflex camera (no digital) but then I have to develop the negatives and to scanne the picture and that takes time ;-)

Greetings
Winnyston

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Ammavita
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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by Ammavita » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:29 pm

Hi Winnyston,

Don't worry, I can wait but not so long ... :D :lol: :wink: :mrgreen:

Regards,

Fred

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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by winnyston » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:09 am

Hi Fred and the rest of you

Now a 3. Microdontochromis is brooding like Estelle has written! That fish din't brood yesterday and today I can see the larvae!? That's quite interesting! ;-)

Perhaps the Larvaes (fry) are getting too big for the pair to hold them all and they are helping each other? I don't know. Or the pair spit some fry out and another female pick them up and is brooding now?

I still can't see any interaction between the pair or the third brooding fish. The behavior is still like they interact before they were brooding....that's really "curious" but very interesting.

Merry X-mas and a good new year

WInnyston

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Estelle
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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by Estelle » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:06 am

I'm really glad you've seen this amazing behavior. It confirms what Benoît observed with his group.
Happy new year to you too ! ;)
Image

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Ammavita
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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by Ammavita » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:34 pm

Hi Wynniston,

You are very luky to observe that kind of behavior.
I am impatient to be able to try the experiment and to be able to divide it with you.

Merry Christmas (a little late :? ) and happy new year (a little in advance) to you too and to each "forumer" :wink:

winnyston
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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by winnyston » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:13 am

....So they are still brooding!
The male was brooding all the time. But the mother wasn't for a few days (or she was holding only one or two and I didn't see them) but 2 ohter fish were brooding the Larvaes! Now the male the mother and a third fish is brooding!?
Unfortunately I never saw a transfer of the Larvae.
The Larvaes haven't any yolk bags for a few days now so I am looking forward to see the fry swimming in the tank.

It's quite interesting.

Regards
Winnyston

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Ammavita
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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by Ammavita » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:48 pm

Hi Winnyston,

Then which are the last news of this spawn ? Do you succeed in recovering the babys ?
Regards,

Fred

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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by winnyston » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:23 am

Hi Fred

I was on holiday (skiing ;-)) so I didn't see the juvenil. I don't know if the Microdontochromis or the 3 lamprichthys in the tank have eaten them. But I will remove the lamprichthys. One pair is brooding again right now. I can see the eyes of the larvae again....so I'm looking forward to see the fry this time. Perhaps I will seperate the pair. And only the pair then until now only the pair is brooding an no other fish like last time.

Regards
Winnyston

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Ammavita
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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by Ammavita » Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:34 pm

I don't know if it's the right way. If their behavior is to brood in group, may be it's better to let them do. But you can try, we never know.

By the way, you live in Basel near France. Do you speak french :?: :?: :mrgreen:

Regards,

Fred

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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by winnyston » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:59 am

hi fred

I should speak french ;-) I had french in school for a lot of years! But I always hated it ;-)

I don't know what I have to do with my Microdontochromis...if i should separate only the pair...or more...or leave it like that and remove the lamprichthys. Perhaps the adults don't eat the fry. I don't know but I will figure it out.

Regards
Winnyston

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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by Mark Smith » Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:15 am

I would remove the Lamprichthys, just to be on the safe side.

This spawning situation reminds me of a friend of mine, Ron Sousy, who back in 1990 spawned Xenotilapia ornatipinnis. I did a write up on this species for Cichlid News volume 2 in 1992, page 18. Ron informed me that a few days after his X. ornatipinnis spawned, the brooding female transfered the brood to the father, and that on one occasion, he noticed that the brooding father transfered the larvae to another male.

Such behavior begs many, many questions for which there are no clear answers yet, but it is certainly enjoyable to theorize possible answers.

One idea is that certain female cichlids can mimic the coloration of a male. If I remember correctly, Konings has a photo of a female Melanochromis auratus taken in the wild brooding, showing male coloration. Or, could it be that in some circumstances, M. auratus may also brood the females eggs?

I did have a somewhat opposite situation with my Lepidiolamprologus nkambae recently. I purchased 5 wild caught nkambae from Blue Chip Aquatics, 2 males and 3 females, all adults and all very easy to discern their sex by looking at their genital papilla - large second opening for the female and small second opening for the male. I placed 1 male and the 3 females into a large aquarium, and within 1 month, a male and female paired off and spawned. A few months later, the male died. I thought to wait a couple of months before putting in the second male, and before I could do that, one of the other females had paired off with the widowed female and spawned, producing about 100 fry.

What had happened? Either this species has the capability of changing it sex, or males can sometimes masquerade as females? I cannot think of any other option at this point.

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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by tanganyikanhunt » Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:42 am

What an interesting proposition, Mark. I have a few questions for you.

From what I read in your post, your pair of nkambe did not kill the other occupants of the tank, in spite of the now known fact that a second (apparently) male was present?

Were the vent sizes of the females in those you got from Chip, uniformly the same size or are you suggesting that there could be sequential hermaphroditism in this species?

Do you know if Ron's fish were siblings or unrelated? If siblings, then what may have been going on is more of a lek type behavior than previously described in the literature.

In either, thanks for a really thought-provoking post. I guess it shows how little we really understand about these fascinating fish we keep.

Tony

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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by Mark Smith » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:16 am

Tony

The 1 male/3 female nkambae group were housed in a 120 gallong aquarium, 6 feet long, 2 feet high and 18 inches deep. Lots of Mexican pot rock forming caves and passagemways and one ceramic cave per individual. No other fish were present in the aquarium, and they all got along remarkably well considering the species.

The vents on all 3 females were identical, classic textbook example. I have no idea if there is sequential hermaphroditism in this species, but with all the interesting behaviors we all observe in our various species, there seems to be a lot more going on than we are aware of. Also, another thing to chew on - it is known that cichlids make auditory sounds that humans can only dectect by specialized underwater microphones. Another friend of mine, Tom Waltzek, last year placed one of these types of microphones in his Tanganyikan aquarium, and was completely amazed and the variety of sounds coming from his cichlids, with sounds matching up with observable behaviors such as chasing. He mentioned that a Neolamprologus leleupi would make several repetitive sounds as it chased another tankmate across the aquarium and then at the moment when the N. leleupi ending it chase and started to turn around, it would make one loud "pop" sound before going back to its territory, perhaps to make sure that the chased fish really got the point to stay out of its territory?

The sound factor might be a possibility for Xenotilapia sima (or boulengeri) that in the wild will congregate near the nests of spawning Lepidiolamprologus profundicola unmolested, all "seemingly" in order to avoid being attacked by nearby scale eaters. From underwater observations, the scale eaters will not come close to L. profundicola nests, and so the Xenotilapia takes adavantage of that. Perhaps the Xeno makes certain sounds that neutralize any potential aggression from the L. profundicola??

Theories could go on and on......

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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by tanganyikanhunt » Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:14 pm

"Theories could go on and on......"

But that is what makes this hobby so interesting and fun. Who really knows what's going on with these fish?

Next time I talk to Ron I will see if he remembers anymore. Nice to hear from you. Been a long while since Streever's.

Tony

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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by Fazi64 » Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:29 pm

Mark Smith wrote:....Theories could go on and on......
Mark - your short stories of fish behaviors are always stunning - all we please for more and more :!: :!:
PS.
And I am on my way to have some X. Sima in my "sandpit" tank :)
Hope to hear them too... :)
Chris

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Ammavita
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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by Ammavita » Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:45 pm

Hi Mark

What interesting observations and perhaps theory... :shock:
I will receipt my Microdontochromis in few days and make a lot of observation period. I cross my figers and keep you inform...

By the way, I receive your new book few days ago. Congratulations. Unfortunately it is too small. When are you doing a large book with all your observations and your photographs.

Regards,

Fred

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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by Mark Smith » Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:25 pm

Thanks guys!

Tom, I'm trying to remember you from my days at Strever's. Could you jog my memory?

Chris-thanks for your kind words. Observations and reading about other observations provides much of my interest in Lake Tanganyikan cichlids. You might like the book, Fish Communities in Lake Tanganyika from Kyoto University Press that was published in 1997. Lots of unique and fascinating behaviors observed and recorded from several Japanese ichthyologists. Great reading!

Fred - Thanks for your comments on my revised book. I know, it is far too small. Unfortunately, Barron's would not let me enlarge it, as they have a specific size and format that they require their authors to follow. It would be great to write, or at least be involved in, the writing and compilation of a comprehensive book on the fishes of Lake Tanganyika. No such book exists presently, only Konings book comes close to covering a majority of the cichlids, but is nevertheless far from complete. I would love to spend several years diving up and down the lake in shallow and deep water photographing and observing the fish firsthand someday, including the non-cichlids too. I think by doing so, I would begin to realize quickly just how little I know about this lake, but the experience would be worth the re-education.

I'll try to pass on more information as I hear of it!

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Fazi64
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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by Fazi64 » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:27 am

Mark Smith wrote:.....You might like the book, Fish Communities in Lake Tanganyika from Kyoto University Press that was published in 1997. Lots of unique and fascinating behaviors observed and recorded from several Japanese ichthyologists. Great reading!...
Hi,
Mark - many thanks for your advice. I have tried to find it in Europe's online bookstores and finally found it at stevensimpsonbooks for best price.
Maybe someone has another sure and reasonable in price shopping place for that item?
Chris

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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by Mark Smith » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:35 am

Chris

This style of book almost always costs a lot of money, and since it is likely out of print, Steve Simpson's place may be the best price. Hopefully, you can get your hands on a copy soon. I know you'll enjoy it.

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Re: Microdontochromis rotundiventralis

Post by Fazi64 » Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:25 pm

Mark Smith wrote:....This style of book almost always costs a lot of money, and since it is likely out of print, Steve Simpson's place may be the best price. Hopefully, you can get your hands on a copy soon. I know you'll enjoy it.
Hi,
I have found much more distant, but finally much more cheap option: at Kyoto University Press - http://tiny.pl/lrwm - it took with shippment to PL 10,238 JPY (96.67 USD). With book of Angel Fitor nice book set, do not you think?
Chris

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