Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

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James Shingler
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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by James Shingler » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:54 pm

Mark Smith wrote:What do you mean by respect and dignity? Does a given animal need to be respected from its own perspective, and does it have dignity, being aware of its own self worth and pride?
All animals get a large quantity of the respect dignity and self worth from what we humans alow them.
Regardless of thier own self worth or perseption of this it is hard to say if their value or their own worth is relivant. but is kind if do you as an individual respect them or not?
Mark I have no beaf with you but any post you give that questions cichilds right to remain as they should be kind of deserverse a responce?
I think you would agree we as humans have done lot of things to cichlids we are are not proud of? Taking form this I guess I for one do not want to take any more part in this perversion. Any advice from you?

Most Tropheus breeders strip. I do not. I can not bring myself to think it is worth the crulty involved. I make my living elsewhere. I can not but think those who strip TRopheus are in it for the money rather than for a love of this genus of fish. They can be bred without this. And I for one have never seen a female Tropheus glad to be stripped. It is like all modern farming practices. It works well but no consideration for the animal in question?

All the best James
Last edited by James Shingler on Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dogofwar
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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by dogofwar » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:05 pm

Here in the US stripping mouthbrooders does not have the negative connotations that it does in the Netherlands.

Matt

Ganapoes wrote:To strip or not to strip is a personal choise. But in the Netherlands we see it as a very very very bad choise

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James Shingler
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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by James Shingler » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:10 pm

dogofwar wrote:Here in the US stripping mouthbrooders does not have the negative connotations that it does in the Netherlands.

Matt

Ganapoes wrote:To strip or not to strip is a personal choise. But in the Netherlands we see it as a very very very bad choise
Or in most of the Netherlands as far as I can see. It is still a bad choice IMO opinion. They can be bred without this (in huge quantities) and should be.

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Klaus Steinhaus
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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by Klaus Steinhaus » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:56 pm

dogofwar wrote:Here in the US stripping mouthbrooders does not have the negative connotations that it does in the Netherlands.

Matt
Matt, I can not agree with your statement. Many of my American friends think the same way I do.

dogofwar
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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by dogofwar » Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:16 am

I don't disagree Klaus... Just seems like very much a minority perspective here vs. a widely held one.

Matt

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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by dogofwar » Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:21 pm

Best thing to do is to ask:

http://forums.eastcoastcichlids.org/sho ... php?t=9496

Currently 82% don't have moral issues with stripping fish...

Matt

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Klaus Steinhaus
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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by Klaus Steinhaus » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:42 pm

19 people voting on one particular forum is hardly representative of North America.

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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by MGSNK » Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:30 am

It says a lot more about the forum than Northern America :lol:

dogofwar
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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by dogofwar » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:48 am

ECC is a forum that is heavily used by advanced old world cichlid-keepers.

There are some really thoughtful posts on there by obviously experienced hobbyists.

This is, obviously, not a scientific or representative survey. But one to show that the anti-stripping attitudes that you've described just aren't pervasive in the US cichlid hobby...or at least among East Coast US cichlid hobbyists...

Matt

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Klaus Steinhaus
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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by Klaus Steinhaus » Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:56 am

Matt, as a cichlid keeper I am sure you are familiar with Ad Konings and his books. His view on stripping and artificially hatching eggs matches more the attitude of the North American cichlid keepers that I know. Here is an example:

Image
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Image

I am also quite familiar with the ECC forum (I'm a member) and know many of the participants there. They are great people and most of them share my view. :D
I did a presentation on the species Tropheus at the Capital Cichlid Association a few month back. The subject of stripping was part of this presentation and the comments I received after told me what the CCA members think on the subject.

You might have noticed that passionate pationate about this subject but I don't want to start an argument here. Let's agree to disagree :D

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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by dogofwar » Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:54 pm

Klaus,

We can agree to disagree whether we personally believe that stripping fish is morally wrong.

But whether the perspective that stripping fish is morally wrong is a widely held one in the US is something that can be measured empirically. Which is what I've tried to do with the survey that I posted...

The results so far:

I don't have moral issues with stripping fish (21) 80.77%
I'm against stripping fish except in extreme circumstances (2) 7.69%
I have no opinion on the matter (3) 11.54%

Matt

zakdmb
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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by zakdmb » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:03 am

i personally do not strip my females unless it is the only option. i dont see anything morally wrong with doing so, i just prefer to let the parents raise fry and observe their "natural" behavior. Stripping eggs/fry, when done correctly, causes no harm and little stress to the fish. Lets not forget that some people could argue keeping fish in aquariums that are only 4-6 ft long is a form of cruelty and should be frowned upon as well.

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James Shingler
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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by James Shingler » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:06 pm

The main prob is evidence not morality for me.
I have read much on imprinting but as yet nothing that would prove stripping and tumbling will eventualy ruin a line or significantly effect behaviour to a sceptic.

I do think it comes down to money.

If you breed Tropheus for pleasure then why strip? You miss most of the best part of keeping them, the mothers looking after the young.

If doing it for money, the reasons for stripping are clear.

All the best James

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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by dogofwar » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:06 am

An update on the poll results: http://forums.eastcoastcichlids.org/sho ... php?t=9496

I don't have moral issues with stripping fish 47 78.33%
I'm against stripping fish except in extreme circumstances 4 6.67%
I have no opinion on the matter 9 15.00%


Matt

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Klaus Steinhaus
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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by Klaus Steinhaus » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:26 am

James Shingler wrote:I do think it comes down to money.

If you breed Tropheus for pleasure then why strip? You miss most of the best part of keeping them, the mothers looking after the young.

If doing it for money, the reasons for stripping are clear.

All the best James
I couldn't have said it any better James. :D

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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by dogofwar » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:35 pm

Is it possible that some people keep and breed fish for pleasure...but might also want to produce a few fish to...help defray the cost of the hobby, have enough fry for BAP programs, have fish to trade for other fish?

I just don't agree with the perspective that you're either a) someone who doesn't strip and moral hobbyist or b) someone who strips and only cares about money

Evidently (from the results of the survey), I'm not alone...

Matt

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James Shingler
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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by James Shingler » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:39 am

To be honest dogofwar mate, I also agree with you.
If one sees nothing wrong with stripping and can not see the stress the female shows each time it is caught and stripped, then one is free to strip without a moral problem.

I sometimes wish I had so little empathy for the animals I keep and breed. :wink:

But I think we are looking at the wrong evidence. A measure of the stress on the female fish is what is needed? Not what people think might be moral or not?
Moral being such a vague term. If anything was voted moral , would you go along with this? Or would you try and get real evidence? In the absence of that we each use our own moral compass. Not suprising without the real evidence needed we come to different conclusions?

In many European countries even pet fish being vertibrates have the same protection from crulty as mammals.
Bearing this in mind we can see there is something of a cultural aspect to the disagreement.
That is........... Do pet fish (and Tropheus) have a right to a life as free from stress as we can manage?
If a method of breeding them involves giving them a stress (regardless of wheather it is the way of producing most young for sale) that could be avoided, then UK law is clear. You should not do it in the UK.
The bit that is missing for a UK prosecution case of unnessarcery crulty, is proof that stripping Tropheus caurses Tropheus stress.
I guess the only thing such a prosecution would achieve though is moving Tropheus breeding to where the laws are not so strict?
Stripping being such an easy option (no brainer) for mass production.

All the best James

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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by zakdmb » Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:26 pm

If one sees nothing wrong with stripping and can not see the stress the female shows each time it is caught and stripped, then one is free to strip without a moral problem.

I sometimes wish I had so little empathy for the animals I keep and breed. :wink:
Im sorry, but i just dont agree with you that stripping fry from fish causes an amount of stress that is at all troublesome. If done CORRECTLY stripping fry is no more stressful than doing a heavy waterchange, moving fish from one tank to another, rearranging an aquarium layout, etc... I have never lost a fish due to stripping fry. If stress is your watermark for how we as hobbyists should treat our animals than simply bagging a fish, transporting it across a continent or ocean, or even taking fish to a show or auction causes way more stress than stripping fry and shouldnt be done. So by your suggestion of measuring stress i no one should ever keep fish, the stress of acquiring the fish and getting them to a petstore or your home should be enough for you to have the empathy not to keep them at all.

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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by Pam Chin » Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:05 pm

James,

Really??? Really? I don't think the stress of stripping, is nearly as bad as the stress of holding to term. I don't think tropheus even remember if they were stripped.

The argument is that you are missing out on observing a natural behavior.

Stripping is a personal choice, I am not saying that you should run home every night and strip every fish you have. Each person has to decide what their motivation is but trust me the typical hobbyist is just trying to increase the size of their group or have a few to trade or to help support their hobby. Yes they are a few that may have dollar signs in their eyes, but do you have any idea of how much work that is??? And in the big picture that is very small percentage cichlid wide, and even less when it comes to Tropheus.

I think everyone should know how to strip female mouthbrooders and take over the rearing process, whether it is day one or day 28. This is a valuable tool for species maintenance. I just don’t think people realize the logistics of collecting wild fish, it’s a miracle that we see any.

In this day and age we all have guilt about keeping fish in glass boxes. But how about some positive thoughts!!! For example there are many fish in the hobby that wouldn’t be here if hobbyists were not maintaining and passing them around. Whether they are extinct or overfished by the ornamental collectors we can keep them going for future hobbyists, and if need be maybe even re-introduction into their natural habitat. Sadly they are going to eat all the fish, so can you just please let us enjoy them while we can?

Hmmm the stress of being ate, or stripped?

Cichlid Power!
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James Shingler
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Re: Tropheus breeding and raising at "PISCES" farm

Post by James Shingler » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:54 pm

Pam Chin wrote:James,

I don't think the stress of stripping, is nearly as bad as the stress of holding to term. I don't think tropheus even remember if they were stripped.

The argument is that you are missing out on observing a natural behavior.

Cichlid Power!
Pam
Thanks Pam, always a pleasure to hear from you.

I do think that the stress from stripping is greater than holding to term. But then holding to term can be stressful if the keeper manages this badly too.

But then again, this is only what we think.

Seems no one measures this stuff.

But yep the arguement that someone needs to strip mouthbrooding cichlids to suply the hobby with what we want to keep, is perhaps the strongest arguement for stripping. (Dunno about reintroducing stuff. Never been attempted with cichlids as far as I know and prob not likely in the future I think.). Maybe someone should run classes on stripping? Make sure folk know how to do it with the min of stress to the fish. Sadly I have had more than one cichlid pass away in my hand, I guess you have too?

And the fun of seeing Tropheus rearing young, for those interested in that side.
Dunno about stress in this. Surely reproducing, holding to term and looking after the young for a couple of weeks or so, should be a female Tropheus's greatest (most pleasurable and rewarding, assuming they can feel such things) experience?

Though for sure in many tanks of Tropheus, she is very likely to be bullied when holding.
But then it is up to us to see that she has enough space to get away from the others (The use of a shallow end with no rocks but plastic plants etc that the males do not bother with being quite useful) or use brooding tanks.
For sure some young will get killed in any set up with a bit of selection and I guess that is stressful but then these ones should not be survive (and later breed) as they are the ones less well adapted to the conditions?

Oops sorry if that is a bit heavy. A photo of what its all about should chear us both up?
Image

All the best James

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