Crenicichla vaillanti and other French Guyana saxatiloide pikes

New cichlid species and taxonomy
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Florent
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Crenicichla vaillanti and other French Guyana saxatiloide pikes

Post by Florent » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:08 pm

Hello,

I read with a great interest the species profile for Crenicichla vaillanti

Rico just publish it on the cichlidroom companion catalog
https://www.cichlidae.com/species.php?id=755


A picture of the lectotype
http://dsiphoto.mnhn.fr/gicim/sd00066/i0000-4050_p1.jpg

A Drawing of the same fish
https://www.flickr.com/photos/interneta ... 810934603/

Edit: I am sorry I post before finishing my message !
Last edited by Florent on Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:25 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Crenicichla vaillanti and other French Guyana saxatiloide pikes

Post by Juan Artigas » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:10 pm

Juan Miguel Artigas
Editor

The Cichlid Room Companion
http://www.cichlidae.info

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Florent
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Re: Crenicichla vaillanti and other French Guyana saxatiloide pikes

Post by Florent » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:24 pm

]I have a question about preserved fish as I am not familiar with this kind of material

Is the splangling retained with conservation ?

I ask the question because we found un french guyana but not on the Mana drainage a saxatiloide pike whitout silvery dots in male and female and with an humeral blotch under the upper laterale line. We used the name Crenicichla sp. "Sombre" (=dark) as when we caught them they were dark green without silvery dots .
A female of this "species" in aquarium
A female of this "species" in aquarium
A female just after caught
A female just after caught
creni_fem_eskol1.jpg (43.67 KiB) Viewed 3654 times
Last edited by Florent on Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Crenicichla vaillanti and other French Guyana saxatiloide pikes

Post by Florent » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:40 pm

For comparison

A female Crenicichla saxatilis or likely saxatilis (note de silvery dots around the humeral blotch)
IMG_0420.JPG
A female Crenicichla albopunctata
crenicichla_albopunctata_2.jpg
crenicichla_albopunctata_2.jpg (55.11 KiB) Viewed 3655 times

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Re: Crenicichla vaillanti and other French Guyana saxatiloide pikes

Post by Rico Morgenstern » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:13 am

Florent wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:24 pm
Is the splangling retained with conservation ?
Such iridescent markings may or may not be retained. In specimens not fixed in formalin before alcohol preservation they are prone to fading, but if retained they may look almost as in life. I have seen specimens of Andinoacara collected around 1880, they still showed the blue streaks and spots on the head, while others showed no trace of them. In formalin-fixed specimens the melanin patterns are more stable (or sometimes apparently even enhanced) but iridescent markings tend to vanish (or to turn to blackish if underlaid by black pigment).

So if a specimen shows iridescent spangling it means that the species has such markings in live, if not, it means nothing.

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Re: Crenicichla vaillanti and other French Guyana saxatiloide pikes

Post by Florent » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:27 pm

Rico, thanks a lot.

So return to beginning, maybe or maybe no iridescent spots !

I read the description of Crenicichla vaillanti (Pellegrin 1903) , I also read Pellegrin (1904) , the description of C. albopunctata is ... brief but for Crenicichla vaillanti more details are given

In French first : "une ligne claire le long du bord de la dorsale au milieu de laquelle se trouve parfois 5 ou 6 grosses tâches noires arrondies"

The translation could be : " a clear line along the edge of the dorsal fin in the middle of which is sometimes found 5 or 6 big black rounded spots "

But it is the middle of the dorsal fin or the middle of the ligne ?
a saxatilis female from Mana river
crenicichla_cf_saxatilis_mana_1.jpg
Albopunctata see above

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Re: Crenicichla vaillanti and other French Guyana saxatiloide pikes

Post by Rico Morgenstern » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:51 am

I would rather say the former is the case. Judging from the high resolution photos available from the MNHM collection database, the lectotype shows the dorsal markings not well defined but obviously below the position that would be occupied by the light submarginal band.

Unfortunately the taxonomy of the saxatilis group species from French Guiana is not well resolved. The identity of C. albopunctata is also far from clear because the lectotype seems not to belong to the species currently known under that name. The rather dense, large and irregularly shaped light spots still seen in the lectotype reminds of the spangling in C. saxatilis rather than of the more spaced, small and roundish dots seen in the species currently known as C. albopunctata. The type locality is known no more precicely than French Guiana. It was arbitarily restricted to Maka Creek (in the Surinamese Maroni drainage) by Ploeg (1986) but such a procedure is not valid. Type locality can only be the place from where the name-bearing type actually originates. A wrong or imprecise locality may (and should) be corrected only when further information (such as reconstructed itineraries of the collector or the like) allows to narrow down the origin.

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Re: Crenicichla vaillanti and other French Guyana saxatiloide pikes

Post by Florent » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:01 pm

Thanks again Rico. After looking closely to the lectotype I agree with you, even if they are not clearly visible the black blotches on the dorsal fin are in the middle of the fin !

About locality, for C. vaillanti, we have Mana River, but we don't have the exact place, right ? it could be on the main river but also a small stream ?

About C. albopunctata, I found the picture of the lectotype :
https://science.mnhn.fr/institution/mnh ... tCount=221
Again I agree with you, this is not the fish we know as C. albopuncata !

The humeral blotch is also large round and on the upper lateral line

Like this one (from Crique Blanche, Eastern French Guyana)
Crenicichla%20cf%20saxatilis%20crique%20blanche%20m%E2le.jpg

Is somebody working on those fish ? Maye you are Rico ?

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Re: Crenicichla vaillanti and other French Guyana saxatiloide pikes

Post by Rico Morgenstern » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:56 pm

Recent taxonomic works on Crenicichla show that the genus is in good hands, so I am pretty confident that the issues discussed here will be resolved in the forseeable future.

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Re: Crenicichla vaillanti and other French Guyana saxatiloide pikes

Post by cichla » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:58 pm

Well, I’ve no access to all accounts. So, my question might be already resolved. Nevertheless…
How is Crenicichla vaillanti differentiated from C. saxatilis?

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Re: Crenicichla vaillanti and other French Guyana saxatiloide pikes

Post by Rico Morgenstern » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:25 am

Originally, C. vaillanti was differenciated from C. saxatilis by having smaller scales on nape and belly. Nobody has checked so far if this distinction holds, Ploeg's various papers are not very useful in this respect. Therefore it is only tentatively treated as valid in our catalog, especially for the purpose of pointing to the 'hidden' lectotype designation and to reject the (both taxonomically and nomenclatorally) unwarrented synonymy with C. alta.

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Re: Crenicichla vaillanti and other French Guyana saxatiloide pikes

Post by smitty » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:55 am

They are so beautiful
150gal- Dovi's; 3 AC 110 P.Filters; 2 AC 110 P.Heads; Eheim 2217,2260
180gal- Managuense; 3 AC 110 P.Filters; 2 AC 110 P.Heads; Eheim 2217,2260; FX5
210gal- Argta,Bifsct,Fnstrtus,Maculcda,Regani,Syns,Zntus; 4 AC P.Filters; 2 AC P.Hds; Eheim 2250,2262; FX5

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Re: Crenicichla vaillanti and other French Guyana saxatiloide pikes

Post by cichla » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:29 pm

@Rico: Thanks, it makes sense.
Anyway, I think C. saxatilis and C. vaillanti could be synonyms.

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