Columbia rams vs Venezuelan rams

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MJDean
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Columbia rams vs Venezuelan rams

Post by MJDean » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:29 pm

Can anyone shed any light on the differences between Columbian and Venezuelan Rams ? I just picked up 4 nice wild caught Columbian fish. They're much more active and healthy looking than any Rams that I've ever seen before. And that includes wild caught Rams from Venuzuela that I've owned in the past. The colors are gorgeous but without much if any trace of blue colorization. My wild Apisto's ( Cruzi and Cacatoides ) are very prolific. I wonder it will be the same with the Rams ?

Mike Wise
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Re: Columbia rams vs Venezuelan rams

Post by Mike Wise » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:01 am

There is presently only 1 species of Mi(c/k)rogeophagus known to occur in the Río Orinoco basin - M. ramirezi. It occurs in the the Llanos region of both Colombia and Venezuela. There is color variation from location to location, but variations in color are not considered important species-wise. They should breed like any other Orinoco Ram: warm, moderately soft and moderately acid water.

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pk333
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Re: Columbia rams vs Venezuelan rams

Post by pk333 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:14 am

I almost feel like that is blasphemy Mike. Location variations are not important, even if it's only colour variations?

That's like me telling some one it's O.K. to breed your male Apistogramma cf. agassizii ("Pastell", Tamshiyacu) with a female Apistogramma cf. agassizii (Ampiyacu). It's just not something that is acceptable (to me any way).

OK, so that example is going a little over the top. But I do feel that, even among a single species, it's important to keep location variants separate.

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Lisachromis
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Re: Columbia rams vs Venezuelan rams

Post by Lisachromis » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:11 am

He didn't say to breed the locations to each other. He said they all breed the same, no matter where they are from.

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Jim Cumming
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Re: Columbia rams vs Venezuelan rams

Post by Jim Cumming » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:23 pm

pk333 wrote:I almost feel like that is blasphemy Mike. Location variations are not important, even if it's only colour variations?

That's like me telling some one it's O.K. to breed your male Apistogramma cf. agassizii ("Pastell", Tamshiyacu) with a female Apistogramma cf. agassizii (Ampiyacu). It's just not something that is acceptable (to me any way).

OK, so that example is going a little over the top. But I do feel that, even among a single species, it's important to keep location variants separate.
Just a few thoughts. You sound like a killie keeper :-D ... (BTW, this is not a "put down") I'm in total agreement with you in trying to keep different populations separate. Only thing is, many hobbyists that aren't really "into it" don't really care about this and hence the attempt may be frustratingly difficult outside your fish room. BTW, killie keepers are much more in general agreement to this idea, and have been for decades. I'm sure that this is the case since variation from population to population can be quite extreme and even the same species in an adjacent water shed can look radically different from one another. Also, killies are collected (for the most part) by scientists and serious hobbyists. In fact, they don't value so-called "aquarium strains" very much. I can say this from my involvement as a former serious killie person. In the world of cichlid keeping this is a relatively new idea, "spawned" by the increased collecting of wild fish and the ongoing reclassification of many genuses and species. Also, a good marketing ploy. (Which 'flavor' of the month - "Tocantins or Tapajos'?). Would this idea hold for the more common, "bread and butter" fish like Hyphessobrycon axelrodi? Where do you stop? Quite a can of worms. Just playing devils advocate :-?
"The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them".
- Albert Einstein

Microman
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Re: Columbia rams vs Venezuelan rams

Post by Microman » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:01 am

pk333 wrote:I almost feel like that is blasphemy Mike. Location variations are not important, even if it's only colour variations?

That's like me telling some one it's O.K. to breed your male Apistogramma cf. agassizii ("Pastell", Tamshiyacu) with a female Apistogramma cf. agassizii (Ampiyacu). It's just not something that is acceptable (to me any way).

OK, so that example is going a little over the top. But I do feel that, even among a single species, it's important to keep location variants separate.
What Mike is saying is that colour alone is not enough to justify the many colour variants being classified as different species and he is quite correct. Mikes not saying that its OK to breed different colour variants and Im positive he didnt think his post would be associated with such a practice... If anybody is an advocate of keeping location variants separate then that person is Mike, you only have to look at his papers on the division of the genus Apistogramma and Im sure you will agree.
Mark...

dogofwar
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Re: Columbia rams vs Venezuelan rams

Post by dogofwar » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:07 pm

Collection locations are often really, really important when it comes to maintaining "authentic" lines of fish.

But people can take this too far or apply it ignorantly:

- Some fish aren't (as far as we know) particularly different across their distributions.
- Some location names aren't specific enough to be useful or descriptive (all rams in Colombia and/or Venezuela aren't the same...and it's not as if fish on one side of the border differ in appearance from fish on the other...)
- Some location names are made up or duplicate (e.g. trade names, names of different locations on the same river or stream...or a tributary)
- Some fish are given multiple names for the same location (e.g. trade names for Gymnogeos vs. Felipe's)

In the end it requires a level of understanding and knowledge of fish, geography and environments that few hobbyists (let alone people who keep fish) choose to have.

Matt
notho2000 wrote:
pk333 wrote:I almost feel like that is blasphemy Mike. Location variations are not important, even if it's only colour variations?

That's like me telling some one it's O.K. to breed your male Apistogramma cf. agassizii ("Pastell", Tamshiyacu) with a female Apistogramma cf. agassizii (Ampiyacu). It's just not something that is acceptable (to me any way).

OK, so that example is going a little over the top. But I do feel that, even among a single species, it's important to keep location variants separate.
Just a few thoughts. You sound like a killie keeper :-D ... (BTW, this is not a "put down") I'm in total agreement with you in trying to keep different populations separate. Only thing is, many hobbyists that aren't really "into it" don't really care about this and hence the attempt may be frustratingly difficult outside your fish room. BTW, killie keepers are much more in general agreement to this idea, and have been for decades. I'm sure that this is the case since variation from population to population can be quite extreme and even the same species in an adjacent water shed can look radically different from one another. Also, killies are collected (for the most part) by scientists and serious hobbyists. In fact, they don't value so-called "aquarium strains" very much. I can say this from my involvement as a former serious killie person. In the world of cichlid keeping this is a relatively new idea, "spawned" by the increased collecting of wild fish and the ongoing reclassification of many genuses and species. Also, a good marketing ploy. (Which 'flavor' of the month - "Tocantins or Tapajos'?). Would this idea hold for the more common, "bread and butter" fish like Hyphessobrycon axelrodi? Where do you stop? Quite a can of worms. Just playing devils advocate :-?

leisure_man
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Re: Columbia rams vs Venezuelan rams

Post by leisure_man » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:02 am

Mike's comment on location not being important has a valid point. The Los Llanos grass plain stretches from Columbia (east of Andes) to Venezuela. The grass plain gets flooded on a seasonal basis so in reality, they are all just one species.

I have bred the Columbia rams as well as cross them with domestic rams. In terms of differences, beside from the obvious colorations, they tend to be slower to mature than domestic rams. Other than that there is virtually no difference in their demeanor (just as active and aggressive).

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