Herichthys ID (Pantepec & Poza Rica)

New cichlid species and taxonomy

Postby Don Danko » Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:57 am

Hi Mauricio,

I've been fascinated by your comments and those of Juan Miguel concerning the Thorichthys in the Cazones. It's also very interesting that the upper Pantepec Herichthys are also very colorful. Actually, as the Cazones and Pantepec are fairly close distance wise, I originally expected them to be very, very similar. I was actually surprised how different the two Herichthys looked - at the time of Willem's and my trip to the area.

BTW, no need for apologies for anything --- except maybe confusing Willem and I :lol: We're all just sharing our observations, opinions and what we believe in our hearts. Too bad we can't do this over muchas cervezas! (You, me, Juanmi and Willem, of course!! Maybe someday we can).

Well, work beckons, so I have to run. I've really enjoyed getting involved in this thread. We may not be done though --- Willem has yet to reply................ :)

Regards to all,

Don
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Postby Willem Heijns » Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:00 am

just wait ´til I get home :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Slàinte mhath!

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Postby Willem Heijns » Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:28 pm

OK, here we go:

Observation 1: the pantepec fish in my first picture never made it to Stiphout. it simply was too big. the same goes for Don's Pantepec fish. what we took home were small fish (no pictures of them :wink: ).

Observation 2: Mauricio seems to think there are two Herichthys species in the Río Pantepec. looking at observation 1: could he be right?

observation 3: the difference between (my) Pantepec and the Cazones is mainly in the coloration of the head, like:

Image--------------------------------Image

my Pantepec---------------------------------------------------------------------------my Cazones

so if you guys think my Pantepec is really a Cazones, does that mean that the coloration of the head is variable?

observation 4: my cazones fish never turned turquoise, neither in normal dress nor in breeding dress. they always looked like this:

Image

does that mean the turquoise Herichthys is not always turquoise? :roll:

observation 5: if the fish I/we took from the Pantepec are of the carpintis type then I would like to say that none of them turned out as any carpintis I know (unless of course there is something like a turquoise carpintis :P )
Slàinte mhath!

Uilleam
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Postby Willem Heijns » Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:30 pm

Oh, and another thing: don't believe every picture you see :wink: :wink:
Slàinte mhath!

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Postby Michael Kwist » Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:22 pm

what a photo's :shock: 8) i like these fish :shock: :shock: 8)
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Postby mauriciodelamaza » Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:24 pm

Willem, Don, Juan Miguel, Micheal,

Those are some nice fish indeed. Now, while it is a little bit difficult to distinguish the markings on the face of the pantepec in the picture, that fish resembles the ones that I currently keep and which were collected in the upper Pantepec, in the state of Puebla. That fish actually goes turquoise –some specimens more than others-.

On the other hand, the one on the right, is clearly a Cazones, which also turns turquoise, and of which some specimens turn more turquoise than others as well.

However, it is fairly easy to tell them apart by the markings on the cheeks. Also, I agree with you Willem that none of the turquoise forms resemble H. carpintis from the neghboring Panuco basin, and less from the Soto La Marina.

It is exactly that same thought that has led me to believe that both populations are not H. carpintis, but undescribed different species.

Also, it is almost now clear to me that there is probably two species inhabiting the Pantepec. At this point it may be relevant to comment that the Pantepec river goes brackish as it becomes the Tuxpan river. Is it possible that the darker form prefers the saltier waters of the lower Pantepec/Tuxpan?

Don I also agree with you, it would be much better if we could have this conversation over “muchas cervezas”, so if you guys are ever around here –which hopefully you will be- I shall invite the Coronas.

I have sent Juanmi some pictures of my pantepecs, some of which I will try to post here.

Saludos

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Postby Juan Artigas » Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:02 am

I think we all clearly agree on the identity of Herichthys sp. "Cazones" (Turquoise) and I believe we all have agreed for a long time it is probably a new species. The subject of discussion here is Willem's picture of the Turquoise Pantepec, as in Don’s and my opinion does not look like a real Pantepec Herichthys as we know it.

On the other hand, it is common in Herichthys to show a great variability in coloration within a population. In my observations probably denoting a social role, where the most vibrantly colored fish dominates a group. These fish are gregarious, and in a wandering group several differently colored individuals are present. Normally the individuals with a more striking color are leading the groups. This of course is not the only example of this situation in the cichlid family, just remember Symphysodon.

In my opinion, the Herichthys from the Pantepec river is an intermediate form between H. carpintis (See my picture in the gallery of a Pantepec female in Rio Pantepec) and the Turquoise Herichthys. It is also demonstrated that the Pantepec Herichthys exhibit a great deal of variability (Much more so than Herichthys sp. "Cazones" and H. carpintis). I would personally be careful to declare them a new species, at least until we know more about them. If we are having this problem to identify them (Unlike the case with the Turquoise Herichthys). What would be the diagnosis? Remember a species as we know it must have a clear diagnosis to tell them apart from other, closely related species. I would say variable markings on the cheeks are not good enough a diagnosis.

So in short, Willem fish, as per his information, may very well be a dominant colored Pantepec Herichthys, as we don’t really know how they look, and they probably look so (so close to Turquoise). Wonderful fish indeed!

Pantepec Herichthys a new species? Certainly on its way to be, but today perhaps with too weak a diagnosis (as we know it) to declare it so. If we are around in 10,000 years, we can probably have this discussion again and clearly agree Pantepec Herichthys is then a different species, just as we generally agree today on the Turquoise Herichthys. As per today, I think we have a lot to learn about this fish.
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Postby Philippe Burnel » Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:44 am

Hi everybody,

a few years ago Juan Miguel told me that "turquoise" could be H. geddesi.
Is it still your opinion ?

Here is a pic of "turquoise" in Jean-Claude Nourissat's large tank


Image
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Postby michi tobler » Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:53 am

Philippe,

in a recent discussion, Mauricio convincingly argued that H. geddesi may be a synonym of H. deppii:

http://www.cichlidae.info/phpBB2/viewto ... ht=geddesi

Cheers, Micho
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Postby Juan Artigas » Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:56 am

I dont´t think so Philippe. It was Dr. Robert Miller who analizing the fish came with that theory. However, type locality of Regan's Herichthys geddessi is located in the Nautla river system (Hacienda del Hobo). Being a Herichthys it is most likely a synonym of Herichthys deppii. This information was brought up in this forum already by Maurico de la Maza.
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Postby mauriciodelamaza » Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:25 am

Hello evreybody,

Here are some pictures of the “turquise type” Pantepec. These were collected by me in the state of Puebla, in the upper Pantepec

Image

Image


Image


Image


Image
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Postby Willem Heijns » Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:23 pm

interesting pics Mauricio. the first one could be the carpintis :wink: but the second one definitely looks like "my" turquoise. two species after all?

say Don, do you have any pics of your Pantepec fish?
Slàinte mhath!

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Postby mauriciodelamaza » Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:27 pm

Willem,

Interesting that you mention the resemblance to carpintis of the first picture, and I totally agree, but let me tell you about this particular population, of which I have collected and kept quite a few individuals:

1) I collected them of a rather small size, about 2 to 5 cms. Immediately, after they got adapted to the aquarium, and their stress colour disappeared, they showed a dried-lemon (like the colour that lemons get if left for a long time outside the fridge) solid colour, except for the cheeks which show a little bit of the blue markings, and in some individuals, also a rather subtle taint of salmon red.

2) As they begin to mature into juveniles (around 5 to 8 cms), they begin to show some “carpintis” like markings (spots) like the one that appear in my first picture. At that point all hell breaks loose, and they begin attacking each other like mad, ignoring any other species in the tank, the dominant males invade every pot, and regard the whole tank as their territory to defend. They show much more aggressiveness and earlier than wild caught H. carpintis or H. cyanoguttatus.

3) As they reach sexual maturity, the mottling starts disappearing, and most of them, especially the dominant ones (both males and females) turn to the almost solid turquoise colour of the other pictures. Some females remain a light vanilla colour with very little or no turquoise.

Incredible as it may seem, actually the first picture is of the same male (except in a juvenile stage) that appears in turquoise colour in some of the other pics.

It is a most interesting and aggressive fish that once one has managed to form couples, the pairs form strong bonds.

Cheers

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Postby Willem Heijns » Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:17 am

so that's a strong indication that the Herichthys from the Pantepec (and (Cazones?) are variable, leaving the question if they are two species or one. at any rate, my Pantepec looked very similar to one of Mauricio's fish. Juan Miguel could be right: both Don and I were right in the first place.

we could settle this once and for all if we indeed got together over some good (Dutch? Belgian? Mexican?) beers. what about that tiny little bar at the outskirts of Poza Rica?
Slàinte mhath!

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Postby mauriciodelamaza » Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:52 am

Hello Willem,

I am set and ready!!!!

Saludos

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Postby Don Danko » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:30 pm

Hello guys,

Can I leave tomorrow? I need a good vacation and several good beers.

Willem, I need to dig more for the Pantepec pics. When I find them, I'll post. I did find my US Wildlife 3-177 form that reminded of all the cool fish we got on that trip: 17 beani, 7 bartoni, 6 labridens, 6 carpintis, 15 Cazones Her. and 12 Pantepec. The Cazones were larger than I like to take back, at 3-5 inches in length. The Pantepec were 2 inches.

I remember we had a very late dinner at a place at the top of a hill. I remember that the Bistek Mexicano was good and spicy and that there were a few borachos around.

Well, enough fish talk. I need to decide if I'm drinking Tecate, Modelo or Corona tomorrow night!!!

Regards,

Don
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Postby Don Danko » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:34 pm

Another thought, I think I'll post an aging series for the Cazones fish, as they go from incompletely marked when small to solid turquoise when they get large --- in most adults. Mauricio mentioned that situation for the Upper Pantepec fish.
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Postby Juan Artigas » Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:20 pm

Mauricio just sent me a pair of beautiful pictures of Herichthys sp. "Pantepec" spawing in his tank yesterday. This is the upper Pantepec fish, from Metlaltoyuca, Puebla. They similar to Herichthys "Cazones". In fact, when I saw this fish for the first time in Mauricio´s tank, I first hand identified them as Herichthys sp. "Cazones" (Turquoise), after Mauricio corrected me and I took a more closely look, it became apparent they were in fact Pantepec fish.

Male in the aquarium of Mauricio de la Maza, Monterrey
Image

Spawning female in the aquarium of Mauricio de la Maza, Monterrey
Image

Don, I hope you have some time to post some of your pictures.
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Postby Melo Salazar » Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:47 pm

Willem, Don, Mauricio and Juanmi:
It seems to me that somebody made a labeling mistake. Acoording to the photos I see an stripped pattern on the cheeck of the pantepecs, we could notice that 2 brown-orange diagonal stripes, going from the jaw hinge to the eye, the middle- bootm of it, are present on almost all the pantepecs pictures(Don, Juanmi and Mauricio's), with the exception of the Willem's ones, (but in his cazones!!) and in the other hand we have the cazones with more random spots and stripes on the face, and please correct me if wrong but looks like the pantepecs have a bigger mouth.
Mauricio maybe it is time to take action again!!!
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Postby Juan Artigas » Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:23 am

Here is another picture of Herichthys sp. 'Pantepec' in the aquarium of Mauricio de la Maza, this time the same female of previous posts but in full breeding dress, when the eggs had hatched. Note the Herichthys carpintis type breeding color.

Image

Thanks Mauricio
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