Greenwoodochromis bellcrossi

[txneal]

This is my first post on this forum and I actually registered here simply because I saw that Thomas Andersen is a moderator on this forum and I'm hoping that he might come here and discuss Greenwoodochromis bellcrossi. I am currently keeping this species and I have many questions about them that I'm hoping to get some help with. I read the article on them, by Thomas Andersen, in the April 2012 Cichlid News and, although it is a highly informative article, I still have numerous questions.

I have done exhaustive searches for information on keeping and breeding this species, but there is very little information available and I have only been able to directly communicate with 2 other people who have any experience with keeping them. From the Cichlid News article, I know that Mr. Andersen has successfully kept and bred this species, so it would be much appreciated if he were able to share some knowledge on the subject here.

[Thomas Andersen]

Yes, I'm here. What do you wanna know, ask along

[txneal]

Thanks for such a quick response!

First a little background:

I am located in Texas, USA and have acquired seven F1 G. bellcrossi several weeks ago. I have 3 of them in a 55 gallon tank and 4 of them in a separate 55 gallon. They are the only species in these tanks and they range in size between about 7 and 10cm. I have set up these two tanks very similarly to each other with sand substrate, some Texas holey rock, and some PVC tubes for the fish to go into as per the suggestion in your Cichlid News article. So far, I have simply been observing the behavior of the fish and trying to make some guesses as to which sex each of them may be, but I have not attempted to vent them. My intention is to try to establish breeding pairs and, hopefully, get some fry from them eventually.

The 3 bellcrossi that are in a tank together are a little larger than the other 4 as I acquired them a few weeks earlier and they grew rather quickly once in their new tank. They are the ones that I have been observing most closely. Almost from the beginning, two of them have been staying together while the other one stays on the other side of the tank. The two that stay together seem to display to each other in much the way you have described the behavior of your mated pair. They approach each other with fins and gills flared, mouth open and throat distended. These two do not show any aggression toward each other. However, the other fish in this tank is quite aggressive and will frequently sneak up on the other two and make an attack. There has been some lip locking and much chasing across the tank.

Because I am unsure of the sexes and am simply going by guesswork at this point, I'm thinking that I must have 2 males and 1 female in this tank. The one most aggressive fish as well as one of the two who stick together, are a little heavier bodied and seem to have more pronounced spots in their fins compared to the third fish which is slightly smaller and a little lighter in coloration. I'm assuming that their current size might make it difficult to determine sex through venting and perhaps I should wait until they are a bit larger. I would prefer not to stress them too much by netting and handling them any more than I need to, so I'm thinking I should wait for them to grow a little larger. What would be your suggestion on this?

Also, it has been suggested to me by another person who keeps this species that perhaps the dorsal fin of the males is much longer than that of females and may be an indicater of sex. I'm trying to see any difference in the dorsals of mine, but I can't really see enough difference to think that I would be able to make any determinations based upon this characteristic. What are your thoughts on that? Would this possibly be something that would develop as the fish age and grow and maybe not be discernible in fish as young/small as mine?

Which brings me to the question of at what size might I expect them to start engaging in breeding activity?...and, if I have 2 males and 1 female in the tank, should I remove the extra male in order to encourage breeding? It seems that an extra male would probably be a constant distraction to the pair attempting to breed and should be removed.

I suppose this is the point where I am right now...I would like to promote an environment that will result in eventual breeding. I don't know the sexes of any of the fish yet, so I'm wondering if they are still too small to determine sex through venting or how urgent it is to remove extra fish once a pair has been established. From what I have observed with the 3 fish, I am thinking there is a pair bond between two of them, but I'm certainly not sure of it. Would it be wise to remove the other fish or wait longer to observe the dynamics?

As for venting this species. I don't have a lot of experience with venting, but I certainly understand it and can determine sex if their is a clear indication. However, I know that some species are more difficult than other. Can you tell me anything I might need to know about venting this species? Would you expect to see a clear difference between male and female or will this be a difficult call?

I am assuming that if I want spawning activity from these fish I will need to get them separated into mated pairs, with each pair occupying it's own tank. This seems to be what you have said in your article. Right now, they are still quite small and somewhat new to these tanks, so I'm trying to work out a plan for accomplishing this. Any suggestions you can provide on how I might determine sex and decide when to remove fish to additional tanks would be very helpful to me.

As I'm sure you know, there is very little information available on this species via the internet, so I'm very eager to learn more from those who have experience with them. Any help will be very much appreciated!

[txneal]

Thomas: It seems that, being newly registered on this forum, I am restricted from posting without moderator approval. I hope you have received the message that I attempted to post yesterday. I will be leaving home for about 5 days and will not have access to the internet during that time. I will look forward to hearing your responses when I return. Thanks!

[Thomas Andersen]

Thanks for such a quick response! The 3 bellcrossi that are in a tank together are a little larger than the other 4 as I acquired them a few weeks earlier and they grew rather quickly once in their new tank. They are the ones that I have been observing most closely. Almost from the beginning, two of them have been staying together while the other one stays on the other side of the tank. The two that stay together seem to display to each other in much the way you have described the behavior of your mated pair. They approach each other with fins and gills flared, mouth open and throat distended. These two do not show any aggression toward each other. However, the other fish in this tank is quite aggressive and will frequently sneak up on the other two and make an attack. There has been some lip locking and much chasing across the tank.

Because I am unsure of the sexes and am simply going by guesswork at this point, I'm thinking that I must have 2 males and 1 female in this tank. The one most aggressive fish as well as one of the two who stick together, are a little heavier bodied and seem to have more pronounced spots in their fins compared to the third fish which is slightly smaller and a little lighter in coloration. I'm assuming that their current size might make it difficult to determine sex through venting and perhaps I should wait until they are a bit larger. I would prefer not to stress them too much by netting and handling them any more than I need to, so I'm thinking I should wait for them to grow a little larger. What would be your suggestion on this?

Yes, I think you're right, it sounds like you have a couple forming and a spare male.

Also, it has been suggested to me by another person who keeps this species that perhaps the dorsal fin of the males is much longer than that of females and may be an indicater of sex. I'm trying to see any difference in the dorsals of mine, but I can't really see enough difference to think that I would be able to make any determinations based upon this characteristic. What are your thoughts on that? Would this possibly be something that would develop as the fish age and grow and maybe not be discernible in fish as young/small as mine??

Yes, in mature males the dorsal is a bit longer, you can probably not see it in your fish yet, it will come with age.

Which brings me to the question of at what size might I expect them to start engaging in breeding activity?...and, if I have 2 males and 1 female in the tank, should I remove the extra male in order to encourage breeding? It seems that an extra male would probably be a constant distraction to the pair attempting to breed and should be removed.

I suppose this is the point where I am right now...I would like to promote an environment that will result in eventual breeding. I don't know the sexes of any of the fish yet, so I'm wondering if they are still too small to determine sex through venting or how urgent it is to remove extra fish once a pair has been established. From what I have observed with the 3 fish, I am thinking there is a pair bond between two of them, but I'm certainly not sure of it. Would it be wise to remove the other fish or wait longer to observe the dynamics?

I think it would be a good idea to keep the odd male in there for some weeks (as long as there are not seriously fighting, in that case you should of course remove him) to strengthen the pair-bond between the couple, and then try to remove him so the couple can get some peace. One of my wild females was not much bigger than 7 cm when she spawned for the first time. If the pair eventually spawn you should keep a keen eye on the male, as he can react very violently towards the female if the brood-cycle for some reason goes wrong - there should always be several hidden places for the female

I am assuming that if I want spawning activity from these fish I will need to get them separated into mated pairs, with each pair occupying it's own tank. This seems to be what you have said in your article. Right now, they are still quite small and somewhat new to these tanks, so I'm trying to work out a plan for accomplishing this. Any suggestions you can provide on how I might determine sex and decide when to remove fish to additional tanks would be very helpful to me.

Do what you do now, and observe your fish carefully - you now very likely have a couple forming, wait some weeks and remove the odd male to the other tank with the 4 fish. Observe again, when a couple form and you think the pair-bond is strong enough, remove the spare individuals etc. etc. With a bit of luck end up with three couples

Thomas

[Thomas Andersen]

Thomas: It seems that, being newly registered on this forum, I am restricted from posting without moderator approval. I hope you have received the message that I attempted to post yesterday. I will be leaving home for about 5 days and will not have access to the internet during that time. I will look forward to hearing your responses when I return. Thanks!

Yes, we do that to prevent spammers from flooding the site. I'll get your account approved.

[Mark Smith]

Hi Txneal

Thomas's article and advise is the most comprehensive information on the husbandry for this species thus far in print. I have been working with this species for a couple of years now and have maintained mine in 55 gallon sized aquariums, demensions approx. 48 inches long, 18 inches high, and 12 inches wide. I initially obtained 4 wild individuals at approx. 4 inches total length. They got along well, but as they grew larger, they became more aggressive with each other. A pair did form, and spawn, but anything else in the aquarium was harrassed to the point that I had to remove all other fishes. Had my aquarium been far larger, I think that any other conspecifics, or heterospecifics, would have faired moderately well. My pair spawned in back of dark gray slate that I had leaning against the back of the aquarium (also, the back of the aquarium was painted black) and this was sufficient for them to feel as though it was a cave.

Once the pair formed, all the way through and after spawning, the male and female would clearly be compatable. However, once I removed the fry from the parents, this being their first spawning, the male would quickly turns its aggression towards the female. Had I not put a divider in the aquarium, the male would have killed the female. After my second spawning, I was not able to separate them quick enough, and my male, being 7 1/2 inches at this point and female 5 1/2 inches, completely shredded the female unto her death.

I am raising offspring from a spawning that took place back in March 2011. These progeny are approx. 4 1/2 inches total length presently. Did you purchase your specimens from Rehoboth Aquatics in Houston? I sold Toyin many of my G. bellcrossi juveniles at that time.

[txneal]

Thomas and Mark: Thank you both for your input. The information you have provided is very helpful to me.

Although I have been keeping fish as a hobbyist for a few decades, my expertise is actually in reptiles and fish keeping is just one of many hobbies that I have pursued over my lifetime. I am certainly no expert on keeping and breeding fish, but I do feel confident that my abilities are sufficient to be successful with this species. In recent years, I had not had much interest in fish keeping, but after finding some G. bellcrossi available for purchase and learning a little bit about them, I was intrigued enough to want to set up a couple of tanks for a breeding attempt. Because these fish were small and, of course, unsexed, I felt a need to acquire a sufficient number of them to insure that I would get a mated pair. I now realize that I will have a few extra fish that need to be removed and will probably need to set up even more tanks in my house in order to accommodate them all.
I have noticed that this species seems quite aggressive and I can imagine that it could progress into very violent aggression. After hearing of Mark's experience with the male killing the female, I can see how it might become somewhat challenging to try to keep these fish in something as small as 55 gallons. I have provided numerous hiding places in the form of rock caves and pvc tubes, so I hope this will help to protect against them killing each other.

Right now, I am content to wait and continue observing their behavior until I need to start removing fish from the tanks. I'm really happy to have found knowledgeable people here at this forum and will hope to be able to come here and keep you guys updated and continue to receive good advice from you.

Mark: I do not know if my fish are offspring from yours, but I think they may be as I'm not aware of anyone other than you who has produced offspring in the US. My fish did not come from Rehoboth, but rather were obtained from Dave's Rare Fish in San Antonio. Dave did not tell me the name of the person who bred these fish, but I think he said they came from a breeder in California. Perhaps this is you?

I am certainly enjoying these bellcrossi so far and I will continue to come here to this forum and provide updates and seek assistance when I have more questions. Thank you very much for the help you have provided!

[Mark Smith]

My pleasure, txneal.

I hope you can end up spawning this rare species and help spread them around. You really came into this interest at the right time, and chose one of the rarest cichlids from Lake Tanganyika. This species was long considered one of the "holy grails" from the lake, and now hear it is, more or less easy to keep and spawn, provided the husbandry needs are met. Enjoy them!

[txneal]

It has been a few weeks since I posted here, but I have just noticed a change in behavior in the tank with the 3 G. bellcrossi, so I thought I would come here and describe what I am seeing.

I still have the 3 fish together in one tank and I still believe there are 2 males and 1 female in this tank. The two that seem paired up are starting to show some different behavior than I have seen before. Yesterday, I noticed that both of them had become very aggressive toward the other male in the tank. He was approaching their side of the tank and both of them would aggressively chase him away. Then the two of them would return to their spot in the tank and the male would sort of follow the female around, nipping at her underside periodically. He would also come face to face with her and seemed to be almost playfully biting at her mouth. The other male kept trying to get close to them and they would quickly chase him away and then return to this same behavior. It went on for quite some time and I did see each of them entering into one of the PVC tubes at separate times, only to emerge again and continue with this behavior.

Then, when I came home from work today, I put food into the tank. The "extra" male eagerly went after the food, but the pair did not seem interested in the food. This is something I had never seen before as they are always quick to start eating whenever I feed them. I did, eventually, see the female actually eat some food, but I never saw the male eat any..... I'm wondering if the male may be holding eggs?

By looking at him, I can't really see that he looks like he has a distended throat, except that there is a slight little pouch..but not much. He's just sort of hanging out and not doing much of anything and has no interest in food. There was something that caught my eye that I thought was quite odd, however. And no, I wasn't drinking either.....but I could swear that the male had a luminescence in the scales of his gill plates. They were flashing a light about once every 5 seconds! Perhaps it was just a reflection, but I had never noticed it before tonight. It was even lighting up when he was underneath a rock, in a darkened little cave, so that made me think that it wasn't just my imagination or a reflection. However, I went back and took a close look after i had turned all of the lights out and the room was dark and i didn't see any light flashes, so it had to have been a reflection. It was really cool looking....as if he were flashing a light every few seconds.

So now I suppose I will wait and observe what happens in the next day or two. I'm really thinking that the male is holding eggs, but I'm just not sure. I'll report back here when I have more to tell.

[txneal]

Update to last night's post: This morning, before I left for work, I put food into the tank to see what would happen. This time, the male came out from under the rock and began eating. However, I did not see the female until several minutes later when she emerged from within a pvc tube. She did not eat and it appeared to me that she was holding. I think the male passed the eggs to her during the night. I only had a few minutes to observe before I left for work, so I'm still not sure about anything, but it sure seems to me that these fish have eggs. I'll keep watching and report back when I know more.

[txneal]

I've had a couple more days to watch these fish and I now feel pretty confident that they are holding. The pair continues to hang out very close together and they are quick to chase the other male away if he comes near. I'm planning to get that other male out of there today. The pair that I believe is holding are switching off every now and then as I can tell that one will appear to be holding and the other will eat a little food and then they will hand off the eggs and the other fish will eat at the next feeding. However, even when they do eat, they are not eating very much. They seem to be very much focused on protecting the eggs.
As for my earlier post about seeing the luminescence in the scales....I've continued to observe this. It seem that the male has some very metallic, silvery/blue scales that are capable of reflecting light like a mirror. When he flares the gills, it can really produce a bright flash!

[Mark Smith]

Congrats, Txneal! You may see the babies out in the open in the next few days. Try to save some and be watchful of the males aggression towards the female if you remove the fry from them. Very exciting. Can you post any photos?

[txneal]

Yes, Mark, I think I may be able to get some photos or perhaps even video. I just located my video camera that my daughter had misplaced. I'm still trying to figure out how to use it, but I should be able to get some video sometime soon.
I'm not quite sure what would be the best method of trying to save the fry. Usually, when I save fry, I take the holding female and place her into a separate tank. With the bellcrossi, I'm wondering what I should do. I have removed the extra male to another tank, so the pair is now alone in a 55gal. Should I allow the fry to stay with the parents in this tank or should I attempt to remove them to another tank? It would be easy enough for me to catch the parents as they hide in pvc tubes and I can easily trap them inside the tube in order to remove them from the tank. I could use some advice on how to best go about saving these fry.

[Mark Smith]

Well, I can tell you how I removed the fry from my adults. As you already know, the parents pass the eggs/larvae between each other, often several times each day. After approx. 9 days, depending on the water temp (the higher the temp, they may be ready at day 8, or if the water is cooler, then perhaps 10 days). I wait until all the lights are out and the parents are fast asleep. I get all my equipment ready (shallow pail, sharpened pencil, net) and turn on the lights and quickly catch the brooding individual. It is immediately placed into the shallow pail with the large net covering it. I get myself situated, and then gently grab the fish, and with the pencil, gently pry open the mouth and shake out the babies. Once they are all out of the parents mouth, I would return it to the main tank, unless it was the female, in which case I would place her into a separate aquarium, as the male would bully or kill her. If it was the male I was stripping, I would still put him into another tank. The important point is to separate them after you remove the fry from them.

Then, I would fill up a 10 gallon aquarium with the same water from the parents tank, no gravel, and just a sponge filter and heater. I would then be able to place the fry into this separate aquarium. Right after all that, I would turn out the lights and go to bed. In the morning, the stress of all that took place is now forgotten by the parents and fry, and you are now ready to begin feeding the juveniles. I fed mine decapsulated brine shrimp eggs as a first food, but any food small enough for them to fit into their mouths will do. They grow fast, and you will need to put them into at least a 55 gallon aquarium if you plan to raise them to at least 3 cm total length. By that time, approx. 6 weeks, they will be more than big enough to sell or trade. Maintain the water temp at 80 degrees F.

Hope that helps.

[txneal]

Thanks for the help Mark. I think it has been about 7 days and I am absolutely certain that they are brooding now as it has become quite obvious. I have been trying to get some video and have made a few attempts at it, but am still not satisfied with the video. I thought I had a really good one today, but then discovered, when I went to view it, that I had not been recording! I'll try again tomorrow.

I've caught females and stripped them of their fry before, so I know I can handle that part of it. Catching them should not be a problem either, since they hide inside of pvc tubes and I can easily trap them inside. I guess the tricky part is going to be trying to determine which one is holding when they are inside of the tubes, in the dark. And then, what am I going to do with the fish in order to separate them after taking the fry? I can get another 10gal set up for the fry right away, but I am about out of other places to put another adult fish. How long would they need to be separated before I could return the fish back to the main tank? Is it possible that just a few days separation would be enough?

I suppose this also means I need to find a spot for another 55 in order to raise up the fry. I'm getting way too many tanks in my house and I don't know where I'm going to put more!I have a couple of spots in mind, but I think I'm going to get in trouble over this....

I'm going to be away for a few days from about day 9 through day 12, so I don't think I'll be able to do this until I get back and get another 10gal set up. It may be around day 12 or 13 before I will be able to strip the fry. I'm assuming that will be okay.

My main question right now is how long will I need to keep the parents separated before I can put them back together again?

[Thomas Andersen]

Why strip them, the parents seem to get along well and the fry are soon freeswimming?? You'll miss out on all the fun, and the wonderful behavior involved when the parents take care of and collect their young - of course there is a slight chance that things go wrong and the fry are eaten, but in my opinion it is well worth the risk, when you in turn are able to witness such a wonder.

[txneal]

Thanks for your input, Thomas. I have also thought about the possibility of allowing the fry to stay in the parents' tank. I would like to observe this and try to get some video as well. However, I also wish to make an attempt at saving the fry, so it is tough to know what I should do.

If I leave the fry with the parents, I assume that there will come a time when they will have to be removed. It would certainly be easier to remove them from a brooding parent than to try to catch them individually, so that is a consideration I must keep in mind. What did you do Thomas? I know, according the the article you wrote, that you left them with the parents for a while. Did you ever remove them from the parents? At what point would they become most susceptible to being eaten by the parents? How much time will I have before it becomes too late to strip them from the parents? Perhaps I could let them stay with the parents for a while, so that I can observe the behavior and get some video of it, and then I could strip them before the parents decide to eat them??

[MGSNK]

You are overthinking it. Removing the parents at a later stage is also a possibility.
Chances are bigger that the parents will atack each other at some point than eat their fry.

[Thomas Andersen]

In my experience, after some weeks the parents allow the young to swim about freely in the tank during the whole day, and only take them in at night. So you can just remove the parents and leave the young to raise them. When removing the parents to another tank, you should either let the female get used to its new tank by herself for a couple of days, or place a divider of some kind, if you move both at the same time - the reason is that the male can get quite violent if a broodcycle is interupted.

If continue to your keep the parents and young together for a longer period of time (several weeks, or even months), the parents will at a given time attack the young and try to drive them away, when the female is ready for a new spawn.