Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Tachymarptis » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:52 pm

What an exciting discovery! Congratulations Adrian! Next time, we do not accept you here if you don't show us photos of the living fish! :mrgreen:

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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Mark Smith » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:43 pm

Adrian

According to the formal description of Baileychromis centropomoides, it has a noticeably wide mouth, almost shovel-like. Do you have a top, or bottom photo of the head/snout you could post?
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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Mark Smith » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:27 am

Hi Adrian

Another query - Your image of what you are identifying as Plecodus elaviae - are you sure it is this species? In a paper that came out in 2007, entitled: Evolutionary history of Lake Tanganyika's scale-eating cichlid fishes, by Koblmuller, Egger, Sturmbauer, and Sefc, in Molecular Phylogenetics And Evolution, 44 (2007) 1295-1305, it mentions an undescribed Plecodus species, identified as Perissodus eccentricus-like. Being as that P. elaviae is more closely related to P. paraxodus than to P. eccentricus, and since your specimen looks quite similar to P. eccentricus, I cannot help but wonder if your photo represents this undescribed Plecodus species, or perhaps is P. eccentricus itself?

Any thoughts/opinions out their??
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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Mark Smith » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:16 pm

One last thing to mention. In the official description of P. eccentricus in, Evolution of the Scale-Eating cichlid Fishes of Lake Tanganyika: A Generic Revision with a Description of a New Species, Bulletin Of The Museum of Comparative Zoology, volume 14, number 7, Feb. 12, 1976, on page 323, says: "in preserved specimens, pelvic and anal fins clear, dorsal and caudal fin with faint grey mottling." Also, the shallowest depth that this species was recorded was 60 meters, or nearly 200 deep.

The photos in Konings identified as P. eccentricus show a fish with a heavily patterned dorsal fin, and photographed in much shallower water.
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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Mark Smith » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:18 pm

Pardon this addition...

Dorsal fin spines for P. eccentricus are from 14 to 15. The fish in the photo has at least 17...
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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Adrian Indermaur » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:26 pm

Hy Mark,

sorry the late reply, was pretty busy these days.

Some interesting points you mention! First I have to say that I'm far from beeing an expert in this group, nevertheless I'm starting to read into it.
To my picture at first you made me a bit insecure about the identity of the fish. In the end now I'm pretty convinced the fish is P. elaviae. What I read about P. eccentricus it really should look different and the spine counts really convinced me. Thinking of P. eccentricus only beeing found below 60 meters, I dont think many people have ever seen it. Having said this, I also think the pictures by Ad for P. eccentricus acctually show P. microlepis (at least 17spines on one pic).
Concerning the eccentricus like fish I cant say a lot. I'm currently reading the paper again and I will contact Stephan (Koblmüller) to ask him about the sample and if he has a picture thereof.
I will let you know if I find out more... For the moment I rest convinced the fish in the picture is P. elaviae.

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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Mark Smith » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:19 pm

Good to hear back from you Adrian

You may very well be right on the identity of your P. elaviae. It will also be interesting to find out what comes of your corrrespondance with Koblmuller regarding Perissodus sp. "eccentricus-like". It shouldn't be too surprising to know that there seems to be similar looking, or cryptic species, to those that are already formally described. Perhaps Konings photo of P. eccentricus is actually Perissodus sp. "eccentricus-like". Perhaps in Koblmuller has a photo of this undescribed species, he would be willing to let Cichlidae.com post it?
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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Adrian Indermaur » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:06 am

Hy Mark,

unfortunately no news yet from the Perissodines. But I just found some pictures to your question about the broadend jaws of Bailychromis centropomoides.
As it seems to me the jaws is not narrow at all but also doesn^t seem to be broadend a lot. I hope you can see enough on the pictures.

IMG_0921.JPG
IMG_0925.JPG
IMG_0923.JPG
IMG_0971.JPG

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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Mark Smith » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:25 am

Thanks Adrian, good and revealing shots from you as usual!

The mouth appears to be somewhat broadened, but not as much as I was assuming based upon the formal description. Perhaps there is some shrinkage after death and somewhat drying out?

Also, I noticed that the pectoral fins are rather long, a feature commensurate with its preferred habitat/hunting preference?
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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Adrian Indermaur » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:06 am

Hy Everybody,

I was going through and comparing some of Heinz Büschers specimens in his collection today and got some new insights in the Perissodini.
The picture of the deep water scale eater further up in the thread in my opinion shows the true P. eccentricus. From what I see it has a rather low number of dorsal spines no vertical stripes in the caudal fin and no fin filaments. Nevertheless a secure statement could only be done after an examination of the teeth. The fish in picture also apears to somehow mimic Benthochromis sp.
These deep water scale eaters really are a fascianting group well worth getting into...

I add a figure of all the described species for comparison, the resolution is a bit low but 250 is just not enough here. PN if you want it:

Perissodini1.jpg



Have a nice day

PS: @ Thomas: I also examined a larger individual of B. centropomoides from Heinz collection and it showed pronounced broadening along the lower jaw... pictures follow tomorrow...
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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Adrian Indermaur » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:38 am

Hy,

I just wanted to add two pictures of the Baileychromis jaws with the mentioned broadening as mentioned in the description.

20120704_152947.jpg

20120704_153020.jpg



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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Benoit » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:26 pm

Thanks very much for all Adrian.
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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Adrian Indermaur » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:48 pm

Hy everyone,

some updates on the various topics in this thread.

This autumn we did some dives at the famous Chituta Bay deep habitat. The Neolamprologus shown further up in my opinion is N. cf. ventralis. Since the description of the type material is from Tembwe in Congo, further investigation is needed to confirm if this is in fact a geografical variant of N. ventralis or a related but distinct species. Further there are reports from a variant from the western escarpement in Zambia. This variant exhibits in contrast to the more patchy melanin pattern a striking vertical striping.
I found the Chituta variant to be quite common at the transition zone from rocks to muddy bottom. A really beautiful fish with intriguing behavior and we were even lucky enough to also catch some.
IMG_7505.JPG


Concerning the scale eater species above in evert's pic, I am quite sure it is the real P. eccentricus. I found some individuals on the MPU fish market.
DSC_0529.JPG

Based on the descriptions the drawings above and comparisons of everything that is countable in the pics the fish posted further up is P. elaviae in deed and the fish in evert's picutres and the one here are P. eccentricus. Note the yellowish throat, the fin formula and shape and the size of the eye...

... and here some more pics of fish that we caught in the depths of Chituta Bay or found on the fish market:

IMG_7637.JPG
a freshly caught B. tricoti
IMG_7628.JPG
X. "flourescent green" / nasus?
DSC_0538.JPG
another larger B. centropomoides
DSC_0524.JPG
X. hecqui


Also we were able to observe G. christy, G. bellcrossi and T. otostigma. All in all Chituta Bay, due to its special topography, seems to be a place where we can find many strictly deep water species that usually reside in the very deep realms of the lake in relativley shallow waters... (30m+) :shock: :D Not really news but still cool stuff!

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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Thomas Andersen » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:05 am

Adrian Indermaur wrote:Further there are reports from a variant from the western escarpement in Zambia. This variant exhibits in contrast to the more patchy melanin pattern a striking vertical striping


Yes, but only the males have these stripes I understand, females look the same?

I think you are right, Evert's scale-eater photo is a P. eccentricus - cool!
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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Benoit » Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:32 am

Adrian Indermaur wrote:
Image

Adrian


Hello, just a question, this fish would not it be true N. wauthioni?
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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Thomas Andersen » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:44 pm

Yes, I think so too.
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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Mark Smith » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:07 pm

Intriguing possibility. Possibly the striped species may end up being N. wauthioni? A good starting point would be to examine the N. sp. "Ventralis Kasanga" (your picture posted on this thread, Adrian) and see if it keys out to N. wauthioni, and then someone? catching the striped one to examine, and photograph. I would at least love to see a photo of this striped one.
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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Adrian Indermaur » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:38 am

Hy guys,

an interesting thought indeed. I think nevertheless the fish in my picture is somekind of N. cf. ventralis as is the stripped variant (the one north of Katoto right?) I just downloaded the description of N. wauhthioni and it seems that my fish agrees in some points of morphometrics but disagrees in some others... What really bothers me are the size of the eyes the shape of the caudal fin and the overall body proportions. Also the stripeing of the N. ventralis types (fine narrow stripes) looks nothing like the blotchy pattern on N. wauthioni in the description or the type specimen in the catalog. Any of you now the exact type locality of N. wauthioni?

If not the same thing they might be very closely related....

Untitled.png
Poll 1946
Untitled.png (190.81 KiB) Viewed 1444 times

http://www.cichlidae.com/gallery/species.php?id=798

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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Mark Smith » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:23 am

a 1 km de la cote, entre le camp Jaques (Albertville) et Katibili
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Re: Photos of X. sp. red princess in its natural habitat

Postby Thomas Andersen » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:22 pm

Adrian, have you read Büscher's article on N. wauthioni? A most interesting read, apparently N. wauthioni and N. ventralis are very closely related:

Büscher, H.H. (2007) Neolamprologus wauthioni – ein verschollener Buntbarsch aus dem Tanganjikasee. DATZ, 60: 58–61.
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