Ornatum

[Cichlidfever]

Anybody finding out that Ornatums are aggressive? I have 3 and my largest one (male) about 4" tries to kill my (male) Escondido about 3". I have two (female) Escondido that he don't bother they are larger and both (the Ornatum & the male Escondido). I have them in a 360 gallon tank & had to add a divider in the tank to keep the Ornatum from killing male Escondido. I would have thought that would be a big enough tank for them to coexist together, hmmm... Any suggestions would be appreciated...

[Daniel Smith]

Nice big tank but if a male cichlid makes it his mission to kill a competitor it does not matter how big the tank is
Only thing i could suggest is add some more larger male cichlids so he is not the dominant fish and any aggressive behaviour may get spread out between more fish
dan

[DRE]

Fantastic stocklist. Both Atromaculatum and ornatum are fishes topping my wishlist. I've heard that ornatum have a temperament similar to JD.

Pictures of your fishes would be great!

[Cichlidfever]

I want to post pics, but don't know what I am doing, lol... Thanks for the advice, my tank is fairly manageable, all except the Male Ornatum and the Male Escondido I am thinking of adding about 4 Red Hooks for dithers. I am affraid to add a larger cichlid larger than the Male Ornatum with fear that it may create my Male Ornatum being beat up on, hmmm....

[Mark Smith]

FYI - the fish being sold in the hobby as C. ornatum, is probably C. gephyrum.

[Cichlidfever]

I didn't know that, that must be why I see a yellowish female with stripes that look like the splitting image of the female festae on some peoples pics... And the other looks like that they will never get those stripes... Do anybody know which one is which? Which one is the Ornatum, and which one is the gephyrum?

[Cichlidfever]

I have been waiting for my female to develop the yellowish color with the stripes (like the female festae), and just to find out that it won't, because it not that cichlid), hmmm...

[Mark Smith]

Cichlidfever, can you posts photos of your male and female??

[Cichlidfever]

I will make an attempt to post pics this weekend, the time I get home today and tommorrow will be really late, so this weekend, would be a better time for me to play with posting pics.

[Alden]

I do not doubt that these guys can be aggressive. The first few days I had mine it was shy and did nothing to my 2" EBJD and multispinosa and Buenos aires tetras. But I whimsically moved the EBJD and rainbow cichlid out. I left the tetras in there and it tore off the head of one and bit into another which eventually died a few days later as a result of the wounds sustained. While I know many aggressive cichlids will do this to a tetra, ornatus is def more aggro than rainbow cichlids.

In terms of they claims that some gephyrum are being sold as ornatus, I found this link might shed some light on the matter:

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... tus+festae

In it, an owner of a female "ornatus" shows it possessing great color and the vertical barring. However, on page 4 of that thread, it shows the barring broken. Rapps seems to explain in the thread that this barring changes due to mood.

I'm by no means an expert , but since I haven't seen much on gephyrum, but have seen the pics of "ornatus," I'm thinking you really do have an ornatus.

Whatever the case is, a rose by any other name is still a rose.

[Mark Smith]

The fish coming into the hobby as C. ornatus have been indicated by the collectors in Columbia and the importers here in America as having been collected from the San Juan River in Columbia. If this is true, then this fish is C. gephyrum and not C. ornatum, since only C. gephyrum is found in the Dagua and San Juan Rivers in Columbia; while C. ornatum is found in an entirely different river system, namely the Patia River basin in Columbia and Durango and St. Javier Rivers in norther Equador.

[Alden]

The fish coming into the hobby as C. ornatus have been indicated by the collectors in Columbia and the importers here in America as having been collected from the San Juan River in Columbia. If this is true, then this fish is C. gephyrum and not C. ornatum, since only C. gephyrum is found in the Dagua and San Juan Rivers in Columbia; while C. ornatum is found in an entirely different river system, namely the Patia River basin in Columbia and Durango and St. Javier Rivers in norther Equador.

That's interesting. Thank you Mr. Smith. That sucks that they are being sold as something they really are not. Mine is a Rapps fish. I wonder why he would be selling them as ornatus? Whatever the case, they are still a great looking fish.

[Mark Smith]

I agree. It is a great looking species. I would assume that the collector/importer from Columbia gave it the name C. ornatum to Jeff Rapps when offering them to him for sale. It is a more recognizable name than C. gephyrum, and so it may have had to do with marketing, something that various American fish farmers do also do from time to time, in order to sell more fish.

[Darrell Ullisch]

It should be noted that Jeff is NOT selling them as ornatum, but cf. ornatum, because he was unsure of the ID due to coming from a different river system. Too many people are not paying attention to the cf. and just calling them ornatum, which is not what they were sold as.

It should also be noted that just because gephyrum is known from the same river system as this new fish, doesn't make the new fish gephyrum any more than it makes it ornatum. It would be necessary to compare specimens to the description and the types before placing such an ID on it.

[Mark Smith]

True. And, I think the same distinction was made in a recent issue of Cichlid News Magazine in its What's New section.

[Alden]

It should be noted that Jeff is NOT selling them as ornatum, but cf. ornatum, because he was unsure of the ID due to coming from a different river system. Too many people are not paying attention to the cf. and just calling them ornatum, which is not what they were sold as.

It should also be noted that just because gephyrum is known from the same river system as this new fish, doesn't make the new fish gephyrum any more than it makes it ornatum. It would be necessary to compare specimens to the description and the types before placing such an ID on it.

You make some really great points. I was wondering what "cf" meant. Does it mean captive found? I do agree thought that just because a fish is found in a particular river system doesn't by default guarantee it must be gephyrum.

Perhaps the misnomer can be explained by what Rico M explained when referring to an unknown ecuadorian species:

"What a beauty! Judging from the notes and figures in Stawikowski & Werner ("Die Buntbarsche Amerikas" Vol. 1, 1998), I would guess it is an adult male ‘Cichlasoma’ ornatum rather then any other species considered here. ‘C.’ festae and ‘C.’ atromaculatum are related species, and there is a fourth, namely ‘C.’ gephyrum Eigenmann, 1920, which was orginally described as a subspecies of ornatum. With some reservation, I would find there are certain similarities between the description and figuere of that latter species and the fish photographed by Seiichi Hamada, especially in the black markings, but there is certainly not enough known about this species."

[Mark Smith]

If their collection locality is correct, then the fish is more likely C. gephyrum than C. ornatum, since C. ornatum is not found in the rivers where this fish is purportedly collected from.

[Bas Pels]

I was wondering what "cf" meant. Does it mean captive found? I do agree thought that just because a fish is found in a particular river system doesn't by default guarantee it must be gephyrum.

cf means conform - that is 'similar to'

using cf means you do not rule out the given species could be correct, but the fish riminds you of the givren species

C gephyrum - a species related to ornatum, as far as I know - is therefore correctly named as C cf ornatum - being a related species it will have similarities with ornatum

But if you think a red parrot looks like a goldfish, you may name them cf Carassium auratum. cf is like beauty: it's in the eye of the beholder so to say

[Rico Morgenstern]

Actually, 'cf.' means 'confer' = compare (Latin), otherwise Bas' explaination describes well what cf. stands for (or at least should so) in species names. Sometimes it is used to indicate an undescribed species similar to a nominal one though definitely distinct; however, in such cases it is more appropriate to use the 'sp. aff.' ('species affinis' = related species).

[Bas Pels]

@ Rico

us of sp aff inlies the statement it is another species, while cf does not imply anything.

Therefore cf is a lot safer.