Phylogenetics discussion

New cichlid species and taxonomy

Postby Tom Lorenz » Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:55 am

Such long posts! :wink:

I just think it's best to limit things to phenotypic plasticity and genetic variance (of a population). I cant read all of these long posts!

The reason why I got on the 'terms' issue is all of the articles I've had to read over the years. From scientific abstracts from 1969 to present here's the numer of articles with:

genetic plasticity: 51

Also worth pointing out that only one of these articles discussed fish, most discuss bacteria. I've never heard a fish researcher use this.

morphological plasticity: 394

phenotypic plasticity: 1809

genetic variance: 3125

It's not just to help simplify things for other folks, but for me too! :oops:
Sorry if I'm being too contentious!

Cheers,

Tom
Tom Lorenz
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:07 pm

Postby Tom Lorenz » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:59 pm

Without multiple quotes and long posts, what are we trying to understand here? How do cichlids speciate and how do we detect this.

How they speciate: the longer story (separate thread?)

How we detect it?: morphology and/or genetics


From there we can look at the downfalls of each.

For morphology there is phenotypic plasticity.

For genetics there is the problem of which genes you look at (some dont code for anything, some change faster than others).

Plasticity can be tested by common garden experiments. Combining the two makes for more evidence and a better tree.
Tom Lorenz
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:07 pm

hi there to all

Postby Marco Arroyo » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:41 pm

Hi everyone, hows it going? i hope great, well first of all let me congratulate every single person in this post, cause you guys demonstrate a high level talkin about plasticity on fish, as you people mention this word or meaning, its not very popular or use in cichlids, but it is a tool very usefull, and necesary to determinate the evolution on the species of cichlids, i really like this post and i learn a lot so, i have to say that it doesnt matter the size of the post as long as i can learn something interesting from it that will help me to understand better the way my cichlids exists, i congratulate again all of you and wish you a Merry Christmas :D
User avatar
Marco Arroyo
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:07 am
Location: Monterrey, Nuevo Leon, Mexico

Postby Tom Lorenz » Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:01 pm

Thank you Marco, Merry Christmas to you too.

I hope I wasn't too argumentative. I guess I like some descriptions 'short and sweet'. I had to teach such things at the college level and I'll admit that you guys are way ahead of any of those students!!! I just tried to avoid getting into too many definitions or getting ahead of myself. Sorry if I went overboard there. I enjoy these discussions too and would really like to get into the aspects of things like hybridization and biogeography. I think I've seen this discussed with the volcanism that cuts through Mexico. This board has a very high IQ and I'll do my best not to be too difficult to deal with because I enjoy the hospitality as well!

Cheers,

Tom
Tom Lorenz
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:07 pm

Postby mauriciodelamaza » Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:07 pm

Thanks Marco, :D

Tom wrote:

I hope I wasn't too argumentative. I guess I like some descriptions 'short and sweet'.


Not at all Tom. It has been (as always) a pleasure having this discussion with you, Willem, Nandus, Marco and Kercheznee. :D

Merry Christmas to you all, and to everyone in the CRC-Forum.

Feliz Navidad!

Mauricio
User avatar
mauriciodelamaza
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:57 pm
Location: Monterrey, Mexico

Postby Don Hiatt » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:10 am

Hi all,
I know this discussion has died down, but I have a few links that may or may not apply dirctly to this subject.

1. This is an interesting page on the thought of some or many of the species found in Malawi possibly "evolving" from natural hybrids.

http://www.hull.ac.uk/cichlids/domino.html

2.This link deals with genetic population structures in cichlids.

http://www.hull.ac.uk/cichlids/Shaw.pdf

The field work is few and far in between with cichlids from the new world.

Happy reading and I am looking forward to your thoughts on this.
Don Hiatt
CichlidRoom Expert
 
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:30 pm
Location: New Jersey

Postby mauriciodelamaza » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:42 pm

:D Hi Nandus,

Very interesting material indeed!! I have always thought that the phenomena of reticulation and “ecological-niche-driven allopatry” (sympatric evolution) played a much more important role in the evolution of metazoans, almost analogous to plants, than we ever thought. (Even though the polyploidy models are, I believe, much less likely to occur)

In my opinion, the problem arises mostly from the almost “paradigmatic” cladistic models that cannot mathematically incorporate the first case (reticulation or regression) into their system, and the difficulty to demonstrate beyond empirical experiences, through the traditional evolution theories and techniques the hypothesis that the phenomena of sympatric speciation does occur under natural conditions.

The above reason, coupled with the inherent “plasticity” of cichlids, and the fact that unlike other animals, fish species are confined by the water bodies they inhabit (which geographic history may be rather easily followed) are some of the advantages that studying cichlids may give (as the papers you mention show), and one of the reasons why I personally chose them as “subjects of study”. Hopefully, in my case too they will give a light :idea: on the subject ......... :roll:

Saludos

Mauricio De La Maza
User avatar
mauriciodelamaza
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:57 pm
Location: Monterrey, Mexico

Postby Don Hiatt » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:51 pm

Hi mauricio,
I think we can all agree that you picked a very interesting subject to work with.

The more information we uncover about these animals (and life in general) the more questions turn up that need answers. That’s science. Lol.

The waters are muddy when it comes to cichlids in many respects.
It may be that convergent evolution, natural hybridization and many other things we do not fully understand yet play a part in the rapid divergence in this family of fish.

If we look at color patterns:
We can see a variety of color patterns that serve different cichlids in their respective habitats. There are many species of cichlids from varied habitats in all the regions that cichlids are found that share similar color patters.

E.suratensis from India, P.polleni / bleekeri from Madagascar, the Hericthys cyannoguttatum / carpintis group from Mexico and many of the Hemichromis from West Africa have similar color patterns to each other (metallic spotting).

Is this convergent evolution or is this a shared gene(s) that the family cichlidae has?

Could it be that these traits are present in their DNA and comes out over generations when it serves a given population?

Another interesting thing I want to point out is the fact that the species / groups I mentioned are all considered to be relatively primitive when compared to the rift lake species. Paratilapia has been called the most primitive genus in the family.

I think this points to cichlids having a large amount of information (files) contained in their DNA and this gives them the tools for a given population of cichlids to rapidly evolve to fill an ecological niche when the opportunity presents itself.

Any of the people on this site that were lucky enough to have their fish spawn in their tanks can tell you that it's not uncommon to have different levels of morphological variability within a given spawn. Be it subtle differences in color, shape or size. Temperament and disposition can vary too.

I am sure the fact that cichlids protect their young may also drive the rapid evolution of cichlids because this gives more of the young a chance to grow up and pass their genes on. If a particular fish has a positive trait, then that's "survival of the fittest" at work.
Don Hiatt
CichlidRoom Expert
 
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:30 pm
Location: New Jersey

Postby Cumb Dunt » Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:29 pm

mauriciodelamaza wrote:Just one more comment: for mutations to remain within a population they must be either “good”, neutral or recessive and must happen at the germoplasm level, that is within reproductive cells……. Somatic cell mutations are normally detected and eliminated by the immune system of the organism, otherwise they may become a serious health problem e.g. some cancers.

Would you consider a "negative" mutation in an organism that is fit enough to be either a) unaffected or b) insubstantially affected by its presence to be what you refer to as "neutral"?

Negative mutations certainly have a chance to be expressed in subsequent generations (we see it in human culture :shock: :D)

Vestigial things are neutral then?

I can't for the life of me find a reason to differentiate between mutations in such a way. Selective pressures make such things relative IMHO.

You are a smart man. I have enjoyed reading this thread :)
i heard cichlids give you cancer
Cumb Dunt
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:29 pm
Location: Detroitish, MI

Postby mauriciodelamaza » Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:29 pm

You are a smart man. I have enjoyed reading this thread


:) Thanks Cumb Dunt, I feel flattered!!!

Would you consider a "negative" mutation in an organism that is fit enough to be either a) unaffected or b) insubstantially affected by its presence to be what you refer to as "neutral"?


I guess yes, except that the moment that the mutation becomes a burden –however small- which may negatively affect its carrier’s “reproductive-odds” in contrast to normal individuals, then the mutation becomes no longer neutral but “insubstantially-negative”. :wink:

Negative mutations certainly have a chance to be expressed in subsequent generations (we see it in human culture)


I totally agree with you, especially if the negative trait is coded by genes of recessive or polygenic nature (which could produce in theory various degrees of negativity that may go from neutral to lethal)….. Individuals carrying defective genes that express themselves in a dominant fashion are usually culled out before they reach sexual maturity, except for those mutations that may code for “negative” traits that appear after the individual has reached or passed that stage. Then the negative mutation is very likely to be passed on to the next generations.

Vestigial things are neutral then?


They are if they do not affect the reproductive performance of the carrier.

I can't for the life of me find a reason to differentiate between mutations in such a way. Selective pressures make such things relative IMHO.


I guess you are right, and I may have been a bit simplistic and generalist in the matter avoiding plunging deeper into the subject. However, I believe that classifying mutations that have no effect on the carrier as neutral becomes very relevant in understanding evolution……. In a dynamic world that is constantly changing, what may be good, neutral or even bad in a given moment has the potential of becoming exactly the opposite in another instant (both in space and time).

Neutral mutations are usually the most important evolutive reservoirs of potential advantages that may come in handy at a given moment if the environment changes. They are more likely to reach higher frequencies at a faster rate than mutations that may affect adversely the health of their carriers.

:idea: I just remembered here is a link to a recent discussion we had on the mechanics of gene-frequency-changes in populations that may also be relevant to this particular topic.

http://www.cichlidae.info/phpBB2/viewto ... highlight=

Saludos

Mauricio De La Maza
Last edited by mauriciodelamaza on Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
mauriciodelamaza
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:57 pm
Location: Monterrey, Mexico

Postby Cumb Dunt » Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:49 pm

mauriciodelamaza wrote:Neutral mutations are usually the most important evolutive reservoirs of potential advantages that may come in handy at a given moment if the environment changes. They are more likely to reach higher frequencies at a faster rate than mutations that may affect adversely the health of their carriers.


You used the word "reservoir" to describe this.

Are all organisms in a constant state of acquiring/losing characteristics through mutation? I suppose I can answer that myself: that is the fundamental supposition of evolution, so yes.

So organisms develop characteristics which are selected neither for nor against, at least until the environment changes, and even then only if the new environment puts pressure on one or more of these characteristics.

I see what you are saying about frequency. Something that does not affect the carrier at all...doesn't affect the carrier at all. It is neither more nor less likely to reproduce.

To me this implies that an organism can change morphologically (or even, to an extent, behaviorally) indefinitely while remaining in the same niche. Perhaps this is a scenario for sympatric speciation?

I don't know :) I just like to talk about this stuff.
i heard cichlids give you cancer
Cumb Dunt
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:29 pm
Location: Detroitish, MI

Postby mauriciodelamaza » Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:15 am

Are all organisms in a constant state of acquiring/losing characteristics through mutation? I suppose I can answer that myself: that is the fundamental supposition of evolution, so yes.



I concur with you :D

To me this implies that an organism can change morphologically (or even, to an extent, behaviorally) indefinitely while remaining in the same niche. Perhaps this is a scenario for sympatric speciation?


That is a "courageous" statement :D, see http://www.cichlidae.info/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1117

I don't know I just like to talk about this stuff.


:arrow: Me too!!!!!!!!

Cheers :D

Mauricio De La Maza
User avatar
mauriciodelamaza
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:57 pm
Location: Monterrey, Mexico

Postby Cumb Dunt » Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:58 am

I saw that.

I am racking my brain for explanations other than "in darwinism, speciation can seem random."

Who knows? Large quantities of mutation in a certain generation due to pathogen epidemics? Carcinogens? A specific set of mutations that left the carrier mobile in terms of fertility, but not the offspring? A biological (as opposed to geological) barrier that has since decayed but remained long enough to facilitate a rapid speciation event? You can only muse on it!

I understand the event and that it occurs. In my estimation, a generalized explanation does not suit this particular "phenomenon", however.

I don't see how some can say it's proof against darwinism. It's the product of a lack of information about the past environment and the ancestral morphology of the taxa in question. ANYTHING could have caused it.
i heard cichlids give you cancer
Cumb Dunt
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:29 pm
Location: Detroitish, MI

Postby Tom Lorenz » Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:25 pm

Sorry I fell out of the discussion, been busy! Good to see it continue. Speciation in cichlids can cover almost any interesting evolutionary question and it really makes them fun to discuss!

I'm not sure I understand your question. Mutation rates and explosions of speciation because of many mutations are interesting questions (if that's where you're going).
Tom Lorenz
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:07 pm

Postby Bas Pels » Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:08 am

Neutral mutations are usually the most important evolutive reservoirs of potential advantages that may come in handy at a given moment if the environment changes. They are more likely to reach higher frequencies at a faster rate than mutations that may affect adversely the health of their carriers.


I think the neutral mutations are certainly - from a relations pouint of view - for us here the most important.

What one seeks to know, studying relations between species, is wheter A or B is more distinct from C - and that quite a few times, or whther A splitted away from C before or after B did.

Should one be looking at a characteristic which is important for the fish, he will have to take care not te mess relatedness up with adaptation.

Chuco and Paraneetroplus fishes life in a similar environment, thus they will have to look similar, and the genes which produce theis shape will, most likely, be similar too.

However, lost of a fishes DNA does not produce any protein, thus any change wil be a neutral change, unless the change wil result in the production of a protein.

As I'm a chemist myself, I always feld genes were much more clear than morophology, untill I read about the problem with genes: they consist of very long strand of DNA, which code in for letters: ACGT. If a letter is changed into another, this is quite esily detected, but its meaning might be harder to find. However, the problem is, if I see an A, I can not say whether this A has recently been a C or not.

To say it differently, I can not say whether de diffenrence I see is recently acquired or not. Therefore, I can not determins fout of this change whether A splitted away from C before or after B did.

This is solved by using the systen - the easies way to solve a problem is the most likely, but it is know some genes change much faster than others.

Therefore, I think DNA itself can not serve to solve the queries, but it can certainly help - foir instance to raise questions

Bas
Bas Pels
 
Posts: 2014
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:17 am
Location: Nijmegen - the Netherlands

Previous

Return to Taxonomy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest