Honduran Red Point x C. cutteri (?)

[Akwariusz]

Cheers folks,

New to this forum and CA cichlids - greets. Well, I used to have convicts some 20 years ago if that counts.
I was, and still am more into dwarf cichlids from SA, but decided to go bigger - and encountered a problem.

I have a 110x60x40 (cm) tank with 4 each of juvenile Cryptoheros sp. Honduran Red Point and C. cutteri. I bought them as those, but I see the taxonomy is a bit more complex now
Anyhow - at a size of ~8cm (M) and ~6cm (F) they decided to increase the population - but in a strange patern:
3 females of C. cutteri have offsprings, one with her male, two others with the dominant Honduran male.
One female chose pure glass in the corner of the tank, the other - a coconut, which she closed completely with sand for a couple of days, the third - sandy pit under bogwood.
The proper pair behave ok, but the honduran male ate all the larvae of one females and guards the other's babies.

Looking at them in the shop and internet I'd never suspect they'c cross-breed. Are they in one family at all? (Amatitlania/Cryptoheros?) Did anyone have this problem?

I will not grow the hybrids, but for future I planned to have one pair of both species in the tank, which doesn't seem to be a good idea right now.

Regards,
Greg

[Bas Pels]

I must say, I'm surprized by this

Firstly, HRP and cutteri meet each other in nature, where they do not crossbreed (or perhaps 1 in a million or so)

Secondly, HRP males, as all convicts (convicts were taken out of Cryptoheros, to their own genus, Amatitlania, but this genus met a lot of comments. I write convicts to refer to convicts, while intending not to go into the validity of Amatitlania) are turned on by the orange/red scales convict females have on their sides - which cutteri females do no have. And why choose a plain girl if there is a beautiful one inviting you?

Many, many CA cichlids cross-breed, and even if the parents are the same species, strange things can happen. Once I had a few strange fry in a litter of Cryptoheros septemfasciatus, protected by mom and dad, which growing up started looking more and more like Herichthys labridens. When they were born a lonesome H labridens male was in the tank.....

But still, as far as I know, this is the first report of convict * cutteri. I kept them together myself, without any hybrids

[Akwariusz]

Bas Pels - thanks for the info. perhaps he (the Honduran male) is just weird and incredibly attractive
Here's the pair with a few offsprings, if you look carefuly. Pls excuse the image quality.

[Bas Pels]

@ that size the offspring still looks normal

@ pic quality, if you search forums carefully, you can find a lot worse from me

[Christie]

My Honduran male would mate with convicts all the time.. My Cutteri have been housed with convicts but fortunately only mated with each other. They have a batch at the moment, but are now where near the parents that the convicts are, countless batches but none seem to make it

[Rick Thibert]

I think all Cryptopheros species are very closely related and as such will hybridize if kept together, disregarding the fact of presence of the same species / opposite sex tankmates. I've seen fish refuse advances of their own species to attempt to breed with species of another genus.................. not happening on my clock!

Rick

[Akwariusz]

Thanks for all advices. So it seems I'll have to split them. I have another tank the same size, but planned to have it planted and with Apistogramma... tough choice.
Is there any other species you would recommend to keep with Hondurans or A. (C?) cutteri in such settings?
And one other thing - I have some plants in the tank, including Cabomba sessiflora (I guess) and the fish don't take any interest in them. I expected them to dig and chew on the green. Is it possible to have a planted tank with CA cichlids of such size?

Piotr - I hope you read this, since I can't send PMs just yet as a new member. GP from apisto.pl here

[illustrator]

Secondly, HRP males, as all convicts (convicts were taken out of Cryptoheros, to their own genus, Amatitlania, but this genus met a lot of comments. I write convicts to refer to convicts, while intending not to go into the validity of Amatitlania) are turned on by the orange/red scales convict females have on their sides - which cutteri females do no have. And why choose a plain girl if there is a beautiful one inviting you?

Actually, according to an article (have to search for it) male convicts do NOT respond to the red colour, in stead they go for the largest available female. The females in stead go for a male which is similar in size to themselves or only slightly bigger (and not for a very big male). (I suppose that in nature territory size/quelity might be more important than male size ... ) In the article it is speculated that the red colour is some kind of signal between females.

[Akwariusz]

Case closed. The hybrids survived for only 3 days free swimming. The pair took good care of them, but the fry just disappeared.
The proper cutteri pair still has ~20 youngsters and succesfuly protects them from other fish.

convicts were taken out of Cryptoheros, to their own genus, Amatitlania

all Cryptopheros species are very closely related

Now, do I understand well? The current taxonomy (although being questioned by some) puts cutteri to Cryptoheros, while HRP, and other convicts are Amatitlania? If this is correct - the hybridization should be less probable, especially with the choice of mates in the tank for both species.

illustrator - I'd be very much interested in the article if you find it.

[Bas Pels]

No, the discussion is whether Amatitlania has any ground or not

Almost all central American cichlids can hybridize, with viable, even fertile, offspring

I had hybrids of septemfasciatus * labiatus, trimaculatus * istlanum to name 2 very odd ones.

But be assured, I destroyed them all, no worries there

[Piotr Koba]

Now, do I understand well? The current taxonomy (although being questioned by some) puts cutteri to Cryptoheros, while HRP, and other convicts are Amatitlania? If this is correct - the hybridization should be less probable, especially with the choice of mates in the tank for both species.

In this taxonomy spirulus would be in Cryptoheros, and nigrofasciatus in Amatitlania. But, I have an old book where is short note about mix of both species. All adults of this hybrid were females.

[Ken Davis]

I have collected extensively in Honduras, everywhere we have collected Amitilantia siquia (HRP), C. cutteri was also present, I have only seen one mixed pair in the wild. So it is not common occurance in the wild, but in the Aquarium central American cichlids will hybridize readily. Ken

[Akwariusz]

It's been a while, but I think update makes sense.
To cut it short: the Hondurans stopped growing and lost their dominant position in the tank. The cutteri male had 2 females for himself and was quite rude to other fish. (excluding his established guppys mates). Cutteri's are laying eggs every second week, but it is usually gone up to 3 days after hatching. I had one batch of juveniles, about 70-80, of which I've left only one male for observation - and to share with you. the HRPs were separated at one point, seems like a bit too late.
The tank is temporary, featuring a Panaque nigrolineatus wood to mud factory. I last cleaned the bottom on Sunday, he's that fast


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like father like son?

"father" socializing with the columbian guppys.