How ro differ the sex of my X.papillio "Tembwe"?

[Carl]

Hi.
This is Carl, I´m new at this forum. I have a question regarding my newest xenos, X.papillio"Tembwe", they are wild caught, I have 8 of them, started out with all of them in the same tank together with 5 X"sunflowers, Isanga" and 4 X.lavipinnis anf a big bunch och C.Leptosoma "Jumbo Kitumba". in a 840-l tank. From the beginning there was a lot of agression, inside the group and between the different spiecies where tha X.papillio seemed to be the strongest. OK, so I split the group, I tried to get a couple out that seemed to have started like each other (you never know of course) but after all it seemed like, just by accident I got the 4 biggest out of the tank to another one, and left the 4 smalles.
Is that an indication that I might have 4 males in one tank and 4 females in the other tank? Is there any good way of see decide what sex they have. The fish are wild cought so it might not be so that the biggest are males, but I don´t know, they seem to act the same in the both groups (meaning, one is stronger than all the others and chasing them around).
Thanks in advance
/Carl

[Thomas Andersen]

Hi Carl, and welcome

Xenotilapia papilio shows very weak sexual dimorphism – if they are full grown, males tend to be slightly bigger than females which on the other hand tend to have slightly larger and more rounded bellies – but this could vary a lot between individuals. I had a group where I would have sworn that the biggest was a male, but it eventually turned out to be a female

In my experience the best way to get the bi-parental Xenotilapia to pair out is to keep them in one group and avoid moving them between different tanks, until you know for sure that you have a couple or two. Then you could move the non-pairing individuals to another tank – avoid moving the couple(s) as it could break up the pair bond. While the pairs are forming there should be plenty of hiding places in forms of rocks etc. so weaker individuals have enough shelter. The rocks also helps the forming couple to stake out a territory – try to arrange the rocks so the tank gets divided into smaller sections, so the fishes can’t see each other all the time

Also I would consider moving the X. sp. “papilio sunflower” and X. flavipinnis. As they are bi-parental mouthbrooders like X. papilio you could expect a lot of aggression between the three species, as they all are very territorial and see each other as competitors. You tank is very large so it could work out, but you should aspect an elevated level of aggression. You should especially keep an eye on the X. flavipinnis, as they seems to be the weakest of the three

Greetings,

Thomas

[Carl]

Hi, thanks for the reply.
Yes, the problems with the other fish was obvious, especially the flavipinnis as you said, thats why I moved the papillio in th e first place, but there was a lot of agression among the group as well as I wrote, thats wht i split the gruop, might have been a misstake (?), Now in the tank with the other xenos it works fine with just 4 papillios (8 was to many) the flavipinnis stands it very well. The four smeller papillios seems also to be thinner, I now suspect that they probably have been slightly starved before they came to me, living in a to smell tank all 8 of them with competition for food and lots of agression, probably they will bebefit of the split, at least for a while.
So: my suspicion is that it´s not females, all the "smaller ones" but more likely the weakest specimens of a group.
Anyway, thanks for the reply!
Now for the next question: Is it possible to differ the sex by holding them upside down, like with other cichlids(I´m not good at it)
All the best
Carl

[Thomas Andersen]

Hi again, Carl

Good to hear that the remaining fish in your tank are doing well - I’ve lost my share of flavi´s with this combination, so I always become a little nervous when I hear that these two species are combined

No, of course it’s not a mistake moving some of the X. papilio if both tanks become more harmonious by this Just avoid moving them in that time it takes to form stable pairs, as the pair bond between a couple that hasn’t spawned generally are rather weak

Yes, you can sex them in that way if they are mature, but it could be quite difficult, as the fishes are small, so is the difference.

Do you have “Enjoying Cichlids” or “Ciklidboken” as it’s called in Swedish by Ad Konings? There’s some pictures of genitals of a Xenotilapia spp. you could compare with. I have myself done it a couple of times with various luck, but I personally hate catching Xeno´s and avoid it unless it’s absolutely necessary - they are so jumpy and delicate in the same time.

If you try to sex them this way, please inform us how it went.

By the way, do have some pictures of your Xenotilapia? I would love to see some!

Thomas

[Thomas Andersen]

Carl sent me this picture a while ago depicting four of his Xenotilapia papilio. Both Carl and I have come up with our suggestions, but it could be quite interesting to hear other opinions – so what would you say the sex are on these 4 X. papilio?

Thomas

[liuchin]

hi Thomas and carl
I guess 1,2,4 are female...and 3 is male....just guessing....

[Thomas Andersen]

Carl and I also agreed on no. 4 being a female, and if I remember correctly Carl estimated the rest to be males (correct me if I´m wrong, Carl), while I estimated no. 2 as being a female

Any with other opinions?

Thomas

[Carl]

Yes Thomas, I think that was my first guess, but as you know, I´m not sure at all. We all seem to agree that no4 is a femal though...
Anyway, since I split the group there has been no "pairing out" 4 in each tank, probably I´ll put them all togehter again soon, the smaller specimens have grown slightly bigger and braver so I think it´ll be OK, I´ll fill tha tank (840-l) with more rocks to separate them.
All the best
/Carl

[Thomas Andersen]

I’m defiantly not sure either, you guess is as good as mine

Good luck with the re-uniting of the X. papilio

All the best,

Thomas

[liuchin]

Hi,Thomas and all

I think that maybe we can tell the sex of X.papilio tembwe by their behavior. My experience is the male more eager to occpuy the whole tank as his territory, so I often see him swim around the tank and chase or fight with other fishs, and the female seems occupy a specfic area, often see her forage on the sand, she only chase the intruders.

What's your experience and observation?

[Thomas Andersen]

Yes Liuchin, I totally agree – observations on behavior are a good way to determine the sex. Even in a sales-tank you can often tell the sexes apart, at least for the dominate individuals, if you take your time and observe the fishes. The problem is that if you want to separate and catch individuals in a tank, then its no way easy when the fish losing their color and it become difficult to distinguish between the individuals – here comes the venting in, but that’s not easy either with such small fishes!

All the best,

Thomas