Gymnogeophagus Sp Muerte?

[madzarembski]

Hi

Does anyone have any information or images on this fish? I understand its a substrate spawner. Is it an ex meridonalis variant?

Thank you

madzarembski

[EC]

Hi
Does anyone have any information or images on this fish? I understand its a substrate spawner. Is it an ex meridonalis variant?
Thank you
madzarembski

I don't know if there's a "muerte". You may ask Felipe. I know cf. rhabdotus from Frayle muerto (but now I've lost all my pictures) and rhabdotus India muerta (from Paso Santiago), both ex meridionalis type. There are gymnogenys type too in these two locality.
cf. rhabdotus frayle muerto: http://cichlaholic.com/images/uruguay_l ... uerto2.jpg (Spencer Jack)
rhabdotus india muerta: http://www.aqvaterra.com/cichlids_gymno ... ntiago.php (Felipe Cantera)
gymnogenys india muerta: http://www.aqvaterra.com/cichlids_gymno ... ntiago.php (Felipe Cantera)
cf. gymnogenys frayle muerto:

gymno.jpg (50.09 KiB) Viewed 2215 times

Ciao Enrico

[madzarembski]

EC

Thank you for the images. I have something to compare with when I see the fish in a couple of weeks.

madzarembski

[Marko Lenac]

mine frayle muerto did spawn 15 days ago and the wrigglers are growing well!

[Felipe Cantera]

I dont know any G.sp. "Muerte"......
it must be Gymnogeophagus cf. rhabdotus "Frayle Muerto", a "rhabdotus" type of the "Rhabdotus" Group-
(Enrico; it's not an ex-meridionalis type....either the G.cf.rhabdotus "India Muerta")

Hug
Felipe

[dogofwar]

Unfortunately, what happens when fish get to less responsible / conscientious retailers in the US is that they don't take the effort to properly label them... people buy them and pass on the incorrect name... and somewhere down the line...who knows what the heck you have!

It's REALLY important to keep the different geographic varients of Gymnogeos properly labeled...

I bought a bag of "Blue Neon" rhabdotus-type in an auction a few weeks ago and found a Norte' mixed in.

The other bag of Gymnogeos in the auction was a gymnogenys-type labeled "Gymnogeophagus sp. "Orange"

If it's not on Felipe's website...and it's an Uruguayan Gymnogeo... then chances are it doesn't exist...

[Bas Pels]

Although it is quite hard to convince someone a fish they see does not exist I do agree with you

It could be a mixture (H****d) of varieties/species, or not from Uruguay at all

But an existing label does still not guarantee much - once I got a group of G australis - which turned out to be some form of the G meriodonalis group. I got them at 3 cm, too little so say much - perhaps I can distinguish the groupes now, but not then

[Ken Davis]

Matt, The Gyno sp orange is being distributed by Uncle Ned's, decendants of fish Ariel caught last year, I'm sure they had a collection location when he sold them to them, I questioned this via PM when he posted them for sale on MFK and he scoffed at me and called me the President of Uruguay.(??) He did post a picture Areil took of a gold Gymno that looks like the one that comes from Riviera north of Tacuarembo. He also had C. Punctata mislabled, Jerks like this ruin the hobby.
I've seen norte mixed in with several Rhabdotus types coming out of the Florida farms, (high dorasl too), A friend got a shipment from them and had Gymnogynes labled labiatus from Convento, which Felipe uses for the rhabdotus from Melo, same group of fish had Australoheros Red Ceibal and Dimerus mixed together. I am afraid that this is becoming common, people e-mail me all the time with names of fish they bought that are not correct, misspelled or only partial names and then you find out they have a species that doesn't even come from that area, won't be long before they will all be mutt fish just like convicts. When you send out batches of fish that are mixed species or mislabled, hobbyist who don't know any better will bred these fish together. It's sad when you consider how great the wild fish look in the pure form. Ken

[dogofwar]

Amen to that Ken!

[Marko Lenac]

very good post ken!

[madzarembski]

Matt, The Gyno sp orange is being distributed by Uncle Ned's, decendants of fish Ariel caught last year, I'm sure they had a collection location when he sold them to them, I questioned this via PM when he posted them for sale on MFK and he scoffed at me and called me the President of Uruguay.(??) He did post a picture Areil took of a gold Gymno that looks like the one that comes from Riviera north of Tacuarembo. He also had C. Punctata mislabled, Jerks like this ruin the hobby.
I've seen norte mixed in with several Rhabdotus types coming out of the Florida farms, (high dorasl too), A friend got a shipment from them and had Gymnogynes labled labiatus from Convento, which Felipe uses for the rhabdotus from Melo, same group of fish had Australoheros Red Ceibal and Dimerus mixed together. I am afraid that this is becoming common, people e-mail me all the time with names of fish they bought that are not correct, misspelled or only partial names and then you find out they have a species that doesn't even come from that area, won't be long before they will all be mutt fish just like convicts. When you send out batches of fish that are mixed species or mislabled, hobbyist who don't know any better will bred these fish together. It's sad when you consider how great the wild fish look in the pure form. Ken

Hi

I am definitely a hobbyist who likes to keep fish and is not in any way a scientist/biologist. I try my best to research my fish but when non scientific literature is scant on fish/species it is incredibly diificult. It appears most of you here have adopted a system of identifying species from Uraguay with a numbering system that I am still trying to wrap my head around that goes something like Gymnogeophagus Pasa Pache I , Gymnogeophagus Pasa Pasche II, etc... I don't know how this works. What do the #'s refer to? meridionalis, rhabdotus, and ? I've been to relatively new site http://www.gymnogeophagus.com/links.php but it does not appear to organize the fish in this fashion. Is there a site where I can see the fish identified by group, location, with associated images along with descriptive written content? I''ve also been on Felipes site (nice pictures). Thanks

madzarembski

[Felipe Cantera]

Hi!
You are right!, That's a problem with all "I" and "II"....but it's not my fault....hahaha.
I always try to separate the diff. populations with diff. popular names...but of some reason....some people change those names or started to use other systems as numbers.
That's something I decided to change as soon as possible..and maybe the best it's trough my site (??).
For now, I will try to explain:
There is 4 species of Gymnogeophagus n.sp. of the "Gymnogenys" Group with the name of the locality + a number, and the same ammount of Gymnogeophagus n.sp. of the "Rhabdotus" Group with the same locality + a number.

The reason of "I" and "II" is because 2 diff. species (1 for the "Gymnogenys" Group and 1 for the "Rhabdotus" Group) come from the same locality;
"Gymnogenys" Group;
1) G.n.sp. "Paso Pache I"
2) G.n.sp. "Aguas Blancas I"
3) G.n.sp. "Cuaró I"
4) G.n.sp. "3 Cruces I"

"Rhabdotus" Group;
1) G.n.sp. "Paso Pache II"
2) G.n.sp. "Aguas Blancas II"
3) G.n.sp. "Cuaró II"
4) G.n.sp. "3 Cruces II"

One possible idea (dont know if it's good or not..?), it's to change and use another popular name for all 4 species of the "Rhabdotus" Group...why that Group?...well....because none of them..or very, very few can be found in the hobby...so changing them should not be such a big problem as for the other sp.?

An option for these 4 "rhabdotus" could be;

1) "Santa Lucia" instead of Paso Pache ( Santa Lucia is the river, Paso Pache the locality)
2) "Mataojo" instead of Aguas Blancas (Mataojo is the river, Aguas Blancas the locality)
3) "Campamento" instead of Cuaró ( Campamento is the locality, Cuaró is the river)
4) "Tamanduá" instead of 3 Cruces ( Tamanduá is the locality, 3 Cruces is the river)

It's not easy...but something must be done...and I hope someone start working with these species so they can get a "real" name...

[Bas Pels]

Altjhough I prefer a name like G. sp cf rhabdotus 'Rio Santa Lucia' over G Paso Pache I, I do have one question:

Are the fishes from the different localities along the Rio Santa Lucia (to stick with this example) the same everywhere??

As you know, I was unable to bring pictures back home from the Gymnogeophagus cf gymnogenys we collected in the Aroyo Tala (my second trip), but if I remember correctly, they did look different from the G sp cf gymnogenys 'Santa Lucia' I have at home.

This Arroyo Tala is part of the R Santa Lucia bed - again, if I remember correctly

Perhaps we better speak of

G sp cf rhabdotus 'Rio Santa Lucia near Paso Pache' and G sp cf gymnogenys 'Rio Santa Lucia near Paso Pache' instead??

[Felipe Cantera]

Altjhough I prefer a name like G. sp cf rhabdotus 'Rio Santa Lucia' over G Paso Pache I, I do have one question:

1)Are the fishes from the different localities along the Rio Santa Lucia (to stick with this example) the same everywhere??

2)As you know, I was unable to bring pictures back home from the Gymnogeophagus cf gymnogenys we collected in the Aroyo Tala (my second trip), but if I remember correctly, they did look different from the G sp cf gymnogenys 'Santa Lucia' I have at home.

3)This Arroyo Tala is part of the R Santa Lucia bed - again, if I remember correctly

Perhaps we better speak of

4)G sp cf rhabdotus 'Rio Santa Lucia near Paso Pache' and G sp cf gymnogenys 'Rio Santa Lucia near Paso Pache' instead??

1) YES, I THINK SO...BUT NOT ALL THE SPECIES FROM THE SANTA LUCIA TRIBUTARIES
2) YES!
3) CORRECT
4) HMM...MAYBE....BUT WHEN YOU SAY G.cf. rhabdotus "xxxx", SOME PEOPLE COULD THINK THAT THIS SP. IS SIMILAR TO A RHABDOTUS....BECAUSE WHEN THEY READ "rhabdotus", THEY MAYBE THINK ABOUT THE SPECIES RHABDOTUS AND NOT ABOUT THE GROUP "RHABDOTUS"
AND THE SAME FOR G.cf. gymnogenys "xxxx".
THAT'S THE "PROBLEM" WITH THESE 2 GROUPS, THE NAME OF THE GROUPS (gymnogenys and rhabdotus) DOES NOT MEANS THAT ALL THE SPECIES FROM THESE GROUPS, ARE SIMILAR TO THE SPECIES GYMNOGENYS AND RHABDOTUS..
I AM SORRY THAT I CAN NOT EXPLAIN IT BETTER....CLAIM MY ENGLISH AGAIN...

[dogofwar]

I think that the problem is less about people who care to differentiate between different fish (and take the time to go to Felipe's site and other available references)...the problem is those that don't care enough to be responsible.

I don't find it difficult to differentiate between "rhabdotus" group (substrate spawners) and "gymnogenys" group (mouthbrooders)...II and I for a given collection location, respectively, or understanding that a given collection location probably has one of each!

Felipe, your English is wonderful and your site is the best reference on Gymnogeos that exists.

Sorry to be harsh, but people who make the effort to properly label fish that they sell...can sell properly labeled Gymnogeos.

Those who don't give a sh*t will sell improperly labeled fish...new labeling system or not.

[madzarembski]

I don't find it difficult to differentiate between "rhabdotus" group (substrate spawners) and "gymnogenys" group (mouthbrooders)...II and I for a given collection location, respectively, or understanding that a given collection location probably has one of each!.

I apologize for my ignorance. I'm not sure what I did to upset you, but the fact is people are selling fish that are mislabelled or incorrectly labeled. This has gone on for a long time with a lot of different species. All one can do is try and educate oneself. I'm very new to Gymnos in general and I have been recently gotten back into cichlid keeping after a long hiatus. I am looking for some information that is all. Felipe and Bas, Thank you very much for your earnest and well thought responses.
Dan

[Bas Pels]

Felipe you are right pointing out that G labiatum are not exactly looking alike to G gymnogenys - just as, for instance, G australis

And dogofwar is, naturally, right stating that when people just not care, any system will fail

Dan, the big problem is, so little is known about these Gymnogeophagus species, and few people keep them. I started with them in 2006 (my first trip to Uruguay) and I think I know more about Gymnogeophagus than all other people combined in my country

There is just still a lot to discover

[dogofwar]

Hi Dan,

My post wasn't directed at you - you're asking questions...

My post is directed at the people who are selling mis-labeled fish.

Sorry for the confusion,
Matt

I don't find it difficult to differentiate between "rhabdotus" group (substrate spawners) and "gymnogenys" group (mouthbrooders)...II and I for a given collection location, respectively, or understanding that a given collection location probably has one of each!.

I apologize for my ignorance. I'm not sure what I did to upset you, but the fact is people are selling fish that are mislabelled or incorrectly labeled. This has gone on for a long time with a lot of different species. All one can do is try and educate oneself. I'm very new to Gymnos in general and I have been recently gotten back into cichlid keeping after a long hiatus. I am looking for some information that is all. Felipe and Bas, Thank you very much for your earnest and well thought responses.
Dan

[Ken Davis]

If everyone would just use the system Felipe has developed there would be no confusion, he is the sole exporter of fish from Uruguay and has gven all these fish the names we use. For consistancy we all need to use the same name, Felipe if you change the names now it will just cause more confusion. Unless a fish gets scientifically discribed like San Borja recently was, let's stay with your names. My problem is with the irresponsible wholesalers and retailers who don't care and sell fish that are not properly identified. Before I ever went to Uruguay I bought a pair of "Rhabdotus" and bred them, The male just kept growing, Turned out they were not even Gymnos but Geophagus braziliensis! I have people ask me for a female rhabdotus, I ask what collection location and they don't know because the person who sold them the fish didn't tell them, hybrids here we come. Ken
Oh Felipe, stop appologizing for your English, you speak better English than people i know who were born here. LOL

[dogofwar]

"If everyone would just use the system Felipe has developed there would be no confusion, he is the sole exporter of fish from Uruguay and has gven all these fish the names we use. For consistancy we all need to use the same name, Felipe if you change the names now it will just cause more confusion. Unless a fish gets scientifically discribed like San Borja recently was, let's stay with your names."

I couldn't agree more.