Any advice for someone new to Madasgascar cichlids?

[emartin]

I'm looking to eventually start keeping some. If possible, I'd like to keep some (or even just a species tank) in a 75g or a 60g (I have both sizes available).

First off, can any species even get along in that size tank? I was thinking maybe Katria katria since it stays relatively smaller compared to other species I have read about and from what I understand they are very mild in temperament. Another species I was looking at, that is also locally available at 3-4", is Ptychochromis nossibeensis.

If there are any other species that can get along in that size tank let me know. If none can, what minimum size tank (or minimum tank length) would you recommend?

Second, I am relatively new to egg layers (I'm mostly an oddball Malawi Haplochromine keeper and breeder, with species such as Taeniolethrinops furcicauda, Nyassachromis boadzulu, Lichnochromis acuticeps, etc) with the exception of A. calvus breeding in my community tank though I was never able to successfully raise the fry. Any suggestions or things to look for or any thing info at all???

Third, what do they demand in substrate, decor, stocking levels, tank mates (both cichlid and non cichlid), lighting (low light, high light, or no preference?), water chemistry, plants, diet, etc? (Currently I feed Dainichi pellets and OmegaOne Cichlid Flakes. I also have Mysis Shrimp, Krill, Plankton (Pacific krill), Brine shrimp, etc).

Fourth, would you consider Katria katria for example a good starter Madagascar fish for someone new to this group of cichlids?

Thanks for all advice,
~Ed

[Vincent Fu]

I think a pair of Ptychochromis would be fine in a 75 gallon tank. You can start with a half dozen or so and they should be fine for a while. If/when they become larger and do some damage to each other you can start removing specimens.

I too have read that Katria katria has a mild temperament, but this has not been the case for me. In small quarters they will kill each other. I once put 2-3 temporarily for a few hours in a 5 gallon bucket and lost a fish. They might be ok in a 75 gallon tank but they are pretty territorial, especially the males.

I think you will have a greater chance of success with Ptychochromis in a 75 gallon tank, although they will likely be happier in a 6 ft tank.

[emartin]

Well I'd really love to have a madagascar community tank one day, but I figured I'd start with cheaper, or more locally available species before I move on to the rarer/more expensive ones.

Currently the only tanks I have available for them are a 75g and a 60g. Once I get the hang of keeping them I figure I could get them a larger tank in the future.

Anyway I know this isn't the right forum to ask this, but what about Etroplus suratensis or Etroplus maculatus? Would either of them do well in a 75g or a 60g (I'm sure the E. maculatus will in either though given their size). And E. maculatus, could they for example if I ever find them available be kept in a 75g with the Ptychochromis or Katria katria?

~Ed

[sidguppy]

IMO Katria katria is something for the specialists.....
I dunno how the situation is over there but here it's extremely rare, or even non existant
I think in the whole of Europe there might be 3 or 4 people having Katria katria, maybe even less.
wish I'd get it too!

it's endangered (like most madafish), so breeding is recommended. I don't think I'd combine uch a species with another one in such a small tank. best stick to speciestanks for endangered species, or large tanks where you can keep a group and add for example Paretroplus to spread all that agression; cause every batch you manage to breed is a tiny bit of effort to keep it from oblivion.

Ptychochromis are quite mild mannered for such a large fish. but if they quarrel, this tanksize might be tricky. where to put a beaten-up female?
2 species are getting more familiar, because they can and do breed and also they make good parents: Ptychochromis oligacanthus from Nosy Be (this is the fish formerly known as nossibeensis) and Ptychochromis grandidieri, formerly known as "East Coast Gold".
these 2 I can recommend to you as "starters for madagascar" because they're hardy, they do fine as a pair and they behave just like any mediumsized Central American or Geophagine cichlid.
IMO you can compare them with Thorichthys spp (Firemouth).

I currently have adult granidieri and small juvenile Nosy Be. the Nosy Be are in a 75G together with juvenile damii and they're quite peaceful, but I've seen 3" Nosy Be breed and then they're just like Central American Crytoheros, they definitely clear out the space they need and are well capable of pushing off any other fish. remember that 3" is not even half the size they can reach when mature.
in the end, even Ptychochromis gets big. 6-8" or so.

Paretroplus are rare, rare, rare. and also: most get large, they MUST be kept in a group, because if you have a pair and they fight, they won't stop.....
IMO at least Paretroplus maculatus can be compared to a mild mannered Tropheus that doesn't graze much. the bigger the group, the better.
that has consequences: you can easily see why a group of, say 10 or so, fish the size of a fully grown Discus or larger with a highly active swimming behaviour will need a large tank.
at least 150G or so.

I've kept and bred Etroplus maculatus. now THIS is a fish worth practicing on, because it shows all kinds of behaviour you might find in Malagasy fish, and it combines those with being not endangered and breedable in a 60G.
HOWEVER! do NOT expect another cichlid to survive in a 60G when there's a pair of Etroplus maculatus with a swarm of babies.......that's how I lost my very first Nosy Be juveniles.
it was a 55, and once the babies swarmed the Etroplus went on a killing spree and managed to kill off any fish larger than the Poecilia spp in there.
they even bite me! (!!).
it's a hardy fish, beautiful behaviour, colorful, active, nasty, assertive, breedable and available, although raising the fry is tricky. in this they also resemble many Malagasy fish because without micro worms or live artemia/brine larvae, it won't do. Etroplus babies must eat live food.
even the best decapsulated brineshrimp eggs or cyclopeeze and all that will cause the nest to starve.

in between nests the Etroplus maculatus has urges one expects with Puffers. they sneak upon any fish and if it doesn't move it will when it gets bitten. little devils. nasties.
well capable to hold its own with big tankmates.
since it's not endangered and has the same demands as my Madagascars I decided to skip further breeding and put them in my Madagascar tank.

there's even Paratilapia in there (!), but the Etroplus do fine. this is 1 tough little fish.

as far as I know -not firsthand- the suratensis is very different and much closer to the behaviour of Paretroplus, except that it needs a lot of salt as well.
much more mild mannered than it's tiny cousin and suratensis is a grouping fish. something maculatus is most defenitely not.

I started with 4......had to remove the other 2 or that problem would have been solved in a terminal manner by the dominant pair.

[emartin]

Wow thanks for the info that's a wealth of information on them.

Actually Katria katria I have seen available many times on mail order lists here in the USA. They aren't NEARLY as common as say Malawi Haps but they are "gettable".

Anyway I currently have Ptychochromis oligacanthus 'Nosy be' available locally for $15 ea for ones 3-4" and I saw another seller has P. grandideri east coast gold for sale for $5/ea for small ones. Katria katria isn't available at the moment. Any particular species that I have immediately available that you'd recommend?

~Ed

[sidguppy]

one of the Ptycho's.

just pick the one you like best.

both fishes reach a similar size, have identical demands and their behaviour is also very much alike.
so choose for looks.

one is brownish with a golden sheen and a dirty orange band on the dorsal; the other one's grey and black and has a blue metallic sheen.

[emartin]

I just got a used leaking 150g 72"x18"x29" (182.88cm x 45.72cm x 71.12cm) that I am going to reseal soon and build a stand for. Currently this looks like it will be my future Madagascar or Asian cichlid tank and certainly gives me a lot more options than a 75g would!

I still only want to do cheaper species before I take on the rarer and more expensive ones (ultimate goal is to keep Paretroplus menarambo or Paretroplus maramandia).

So, what could I keep that would work in there and not hybridize? I was thinking a species from Ptychochromis, Katria katria, and maybe Paratilapia polleni/bleekeri or a species of Paretroplus that is locally available or maybe Etroplus maculatus.

What do you guys think?

~Ed

[seanwelsh1]

All of those species would work as i have Paretroplus menarambo , Paretroplus maculatus , Paratilapia polleni 1 pair and 2 Breeding pairs of Ptychochromis Oligacanthus "Nosy Be " in the same size tank as yours.I find they all get along great but do realise that when the Paretroplus get larger i may have to thin them out.

I think people worry to much about the different Paretroplus hybridinzing as in my tank the two groups are very much seperated, and if they did get together then of coarse i would not pass on or even grown on any fry and problay remove one of the fish that had formed the pair !

Saying all that a large group say around 15 Etroplus maculatus woudl look great also

If only i could get some Katria katria or even Paretroplus maramandia

[sidguppy]

I just got a used leaking 150g 72"x18"x29" (182.88cm x 45.72cm x 71.12cm) that I am going to reseal soon and build a stand for. Currently this looks like it will be my future Madagascar or Asian cichlid tank and certainly gives me a lot more options than a 75g would!

couldn't agree more
I got them in a 315G tank and they can do all kinds of misschief, haven't lost a single Madagascar fish in that tank so far (knock knock on wood)

So, what could I keep that would work in there and not hybridize? I was thinking a species from Ptychochromis, Katria katria, and maybe Paratilapia polleni/bleekeri or a species of Paretroplus that is locally available or maybe Etroplus maculatus.

Ptychochromis, Katria, Etroplus & Paretroplus mix just fine I think (I have no experience with Katria so far).
don't mix Etroplus with Paratilapia.
Paratilapia is a piscivore and Etroplus is a tiny fish.
I've kept mine together, but it was only because my Paratilapuia's aren't fully grown that it didn't go wrong.
my male Paratilapia "polleni/Small spot East Coast" is about 7", but still tried to hunt down my fully grown mature 2.5" Etroplus.
it was the speed of the latter and the many rocks that kept him from having lunch! now my Etroplus are gone from that tank.

at 7" a male Paratilapia is just over half grown; they are known to reach 1 foot in length.....I've seen Paratilapia bleekeri males of that size in Germany and the mouth on such a fish is impressive.
Also, adult male Paratilapia's can get quite agressive and when they have a bad day this agression is aimed at any fish, not just the females of their own species.
I think, judging by my own tank, that Ptychochromis is far more resistant to Paratilapia agression than Paretroplus.
I don't know about Paratilapia Vs Katria, but against a 1 foot Paratilapia male an adult 4-5" Katria won't have much chance I think.

several people from the French forum (Madafish) advised me against combining large Paratilapia's with Paretroplus and smaller fish. so far those people have been smack on the money with their advice on several other Madagascar fish issues. they know their stuff.

Saying all that a large group say around 15 Etroplus maculatus woudl look great also

only until the dominant pair starts to breed and not even then!
this is a tiny fish with a LOAD of character. it can and does hunt down unwanted speciesmembers. and it doesn't stop at chasing them from the spawning site; we're talking some serious Stooges' Search & Destroy action here.
this is most definitely NOT a grouping fish.
it's relative Etroplus suratensis (the brackish one) behaves like Paretroplus, but the E maculatus behaves like what we read about Paretroplus nourissatti; the Lamena.
a mated pair of Etroplus can fit perfectly in any Madagascar tank without Paratilapia's. it can hold its' own against large Paretroplus, Ptrychochromis and likely Katria. apart from the nasty disposition it's a very easy to keep fish.

I find they all get along great but do realise that when the Paretroplus get larger i may have to thin them out.

careful with this. everyone I spoke about Paretroplus told me this: the Paretroplus species from the Damba group -the ones that look most like marine surgeonfish- are all peaceful in a large group and vicious in a small group.
the Damba group includes macomandia, dambabe, menarambo, maculatus etc.
I have the same experience. I've seen some fairly nasty fighting, but since I have 11 P maculatus, the agression is diluted. fights don't last long and once a "looser" hides in the group the agressor seems to loose interest instead of following through.
because of this I actually plan to enlarge my group, not thin them out.

Zigster, I know you're UK based. no Katria breeders in the UK currently?

[seanwelsh1]

careful with this. everyone I spoke about Paretroplus told me this: the Paretroplus species from the Damba group -the ones that look most like marine surgeonfish- are all peaceful in a large group and vicious in a small group.
the Damba group includes macomandia, dambabe, menarambo, maculatus etc.
I have the same experience. I've seen some fairly nasty fighting, but since I have 11 P maculatus, the agression is diluted. fights don't last long and once a "looser" hides in the group the agressor seems to loose interest instead of following through.
because of this I actually plan to enlarge my group, not thin them out.

Zigster, I know you're UK based. no Katria breeders in the UK currently?

Oh good it means i can get more menarambo then

Katria breeders No not that i know of !

[emartin]

I'm likely going to go with Ptychochromis sp, and one Paretroplus sp. for now.

With the Paretoplus, are there any particular species that you guys would recommend? I don't want to keep anything rare or expensive just yet, and nothing that won't let the Ptychochromis get their chance to breed every so often.

~Ed

[emartin]

I'm likely going to go with Ptychochromis sp, and one Paretroplus sp. for now.

With the Paretoplus, are there any particular species that you guys would recommend? I don't want to keep anything rare or expensive just yet, and nothing that won't let the Ptychochromis get their chance to breed every so often.

~Ed

Also, would Paretroplus nourisati get a long with any other madagascar cichlids in the same tank?

[sidguppy]

can't tell you much about the nourissatti, except that it's even more rare in Europe then Katria and that it's very hard to match a pair; the intraspecific agression goes through the roof with this species when it matures.

you might ask about the nourissatti on here:
http://madagroup.francecichlid.com/index.php?lng=en
or pm Michael Negrini. he's on this forum as well.

but I think if you want to start with Paretroplus, a group of maculatus, menarambo or kieneri would be a really nice start.

Ptychochromis and Paretroplus mix just fine.

[emartin]

can't tell you much about the nourissatti, except that it's even more rare in Europe then Katria and that it's very hard to match a pair; the intraspecific agression goes through the roof with this species when it matures.

you might ask about the nourissatti on here:
http://madagroup.francecichlid.com/index.php?lng=en
or pm Michael Negrini. he's on this forum as well.

but I think if you want to start with Paretroplus, a group of maculatus, menarambo or kieneri would be a really nice start.

Ptychochromis and Paretroplus mix just fine.

Does Paretroplus kieneri do anything more with coloration? From the VERY few pictures I found online they appear to have a O.B. coloration that is usually seen in the rift lake species, but that the P. kieneri are mostly gray and dull. Do they do anything more with color?

Also, what about Paretroplus dambabe? They're available here in the US by special breeders I believe. I've seen conflicting photos of them, some showing them completely ghost-pale, and others showing them cream colored with lots of red on the under side...for example I'm typically seeing photos like this:


And then I see others like this:
http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aq ... C_4439.JPG

It's the same with P. kieneri. Most pictures I see of them look like this:


And then I saw one that looked like this:


Any thoughts?
~Ed

[duanest]

I believe the colors you've seen are typical, and do not vary much with age,

but I still find their constant motion and schooling behavior appealing.
I also keep dambabe, but they are young and haven't shown much color yet, I'm anticipating changes as they grow.

By the way, I have (in the past), kept P nourisatti with menerambo. The only aggression was between the nourisatti themselves, and it was lethal.

[emartin]

I believe the colors you've seen are typical, and do not vary much with age

Do you have pictures of the group or school of them, or pictures of a spawning pair?

Although I don't find them as appealing as P. menerambo, P. maculatus, or P. damii, they are interesting looking...

~Ed

[emartin]

Also, what non-cichlid tank mates would you guys recommend to be in the tank?

And are there any other cichlids that are non-madagascar that would do well in the same tank? Ie, african, Indian (E. maculatus, E. canarensis), or New World?

One thing I was thinking of was keeping a small pair of convicts or something in a 40g I have and breeding them so I can get at least gain some experience with egg laying fish...

~Ed

[duanest]

as close to a school pics I've been able to get

pic with eggs, as soon as the guarding parent would leave, the other would swoop in and eat the eggs.
Had the same scenario with menerambo eating eggs too.



laying eggs

[sidguppy]

beauty is all in the eye of the beholder....

personally I wish i had:
A: a 1000G tank instead of my 315G (wich still is a large tank)
B: availability of kieneri in Europe, katria, you name it; I'd go for a whole load

I love those kieneri, Douanest, they're real beauties!

I have this thing for shoaling cichlids....in the past I've kept several Tropheus species, all kinds of Cyprichromis, Enantiopus, Xenotilapia, Callochromis, Cardiopharynx, Haplotaxodon, Cyathopharynx, Bathybates.......all of whom are really best to keep in groups and I did just that.

now I've got 11 individuals of a single Paretroplus and planning to get more of that species; IMO that's the best way of keeping the shoalers.
as many as can fit comfortable fish-friendly in the available tankspace

about the spawning..... I had to laugh
what IS it with Paretroplus that makes them like Dumb & Dumber? even a 2" krib is better at protecting the eggs in a crammed community tank than these buggers.
my maculatus took a leaf outta the book of your kieneri.
very pretty, but really stoopid fish


@Marduk:

Also, what non-cichlid tank mates would you guys recommend to be in the tank?

any fish that's non agressieve and compatible with the water.
currently I have Tanganyikan catfishes with them; they're still there from the time I kept a Tanganyikan community.
since my tapwater is fairly hard and Madagascars cope with that just fine I decided to keep them
and doing away with 5 Synodontis granulosus would break my heart anyway.
the others are 3 Phyllonemus typus and 1 Hypostomus plecostomoides. 1 of the few Loricariids that can do just fine with a pH of about 8.

depending on the waterparameters I'd recommend several species of sturdy characins or barbs or catfishes. pleco's do fine, Ancistrus too.
nothing too carnivorous, but also nothing too small or fragile.

you could decide to keep the tank "African" and go with Distichodus spp as an interesting choice for characin. the character of Distichodus is quite like Paretroplus.
nasty to speciesmembers in a too small group, but OK with groups of 8 or more.

a real stunning beauty and a perfect surface dweller of a size (6-7") is Rayamas (formerly Barilius) christyi.
this African barb looks like a cross between a tuna and a trout and then miniaturized. it's a fast swimming but hardy fish, peaceful, active, but you do need to keep glasspanes or a hood closed, cause they are tremendous jumpers. I've kep this fish in the '90's and it's amazing.

if you're not a biotope nutter, there are several species of Rainbow fish that would do perfect in a Madagascar tank. the larger Melanotaenia species and the sleek golden (females) or bright red (males) Glossolepis inciscus.
and ofcourse, if you skip on Paratilapia there is Bedotia madagascariensis, formerly known as Bedotia geayi. a real active shoaling fish that's best kept in large numbers. think 15, 20, more...many more
easy to keep, peaceful, gracile....
the 1 drawback is that this fish is the natural staplefood of Paratilapia so better not mix these 2. expensive food!

what are the waterparameters of your tank?
hardiness and pH are most important.

[emartin]

My tap water chemistry I believe is a pH of 6, with medium-hard water (forgot the exact numbers and unit of measurement, etc), and I think I remember testing 2ppm of phosphates... No nitrates, nitrite, ammonia, etc.

About the fish being dumb when it comes to breeding, I don't blame them, after all they are supposedly some of the oldest cichlid species on earth right?

Anyway about tank mates, what about fish like Synodontis decorus, Clown Loaches (Chromobotia macaranthus I think, as if you didn't know what a clown loach was though!), Giant Danios, Tetras, etc? And any other non-madagascar fish that would get a long in the same tank? I was thinking of getting a pair of Convict cichlids (archocentrus nigro-something) to breed for a little while to get the hang of keeping egg laying fish... Could they for example be moved and live peacefully in the tank?

~Ed