Antibiotics...and the Nitrogen Cycle...

[Colby Dixon]

Question: Are the "good bacteria" that facilitate the Nitrogen cycle in the aquarium Gram + or - ? I have heard them called "Nitrosomas" before...is this the genus that these bacteria belong to?

...and finally...does any one have a link to a good table of what antibiotics kill what kinds of bacteria (as far as being Gram + or -)....

[Bas Pels]

I can't help you with your question, but I can only try to convince you not to use antibiotics at all.

I think people are more important than fish, and using antibiotics fior fish, will result in extra exposure for the bacteria to the antibiotics - and thus sooner adaptation resulting in immunity.

Yes, I've seen fish dying I might could have saved with some antibiotic. Not nice, but I think that is better than using antibiotics.

Bas

[Philippe Burnel]

I was unable to explain clearly because of my bad english.
Bas did it... Nothing to add.

[Colby Dixon]

I was unable to explain clearly because of my bad english.
Bas did it... Nothing to add.

Then why did you post? If you'd like to split your responses for a discussion of why antibiotics should not be used in the aquarium, I am interested in hearing that.

Can anyone help me with my question?

[Lisachromis]

I was unable to explain clearly because of my bad english.
Bas did it... Nothing to add.

Then why did you post? If you'd like to split your responses for a discussion of why antibiotics should not be used in the aquarium, I am interested in hearing that.

Why comment on it then?

Can anyone help me with my question?

Not sure I can help all that much but did find the following here . It's based on marine tanks, but I think you can work out what you want for fresh.

Many bacteria are naturally resistant to specific drugs, so using the proper type of antibiotic is of the utmost importance. For example, gram-positive bacteria are often unaffected by tetracycline and streptomycin, while gram-negative bacteria may be unaffected by ampicillin, penicillin, erythromycin and sulfa drugs.

Some bacteria may also be unaffected by the usual dose, but are susceptible to a higher dose.
Here is another good example. Mardel Laboratories makes Mayacin and Mayacin 2. Mayacin is erythromycin based and is a gram-positive bacteria treatment. Mayacin 2 is mincycline hydrochlor based and is a gram-negative bacteria treatment, as well as sufficiently absorbed through the skin to treat internal infections. Since most bacteria that cause disease in marine fish are gram-negative, and can quickly become systemic, Mayacin 2 would be the most effective choice.

You have to take into consideration that you will not be able to determine the exact type of bacteria you are dealing with, mutated strains can be produced, and both bacteria might be present. Broad spectrum antibiotics, ones that kill both gram-negative and positive bacteria, such as neomycin, chloramphenicol, nitrofurazone based products, skin absorbed kanamycin sulfate based antibiotics such as Kanacyn/K-Mycin, and secondly tetracycline, are usually effective treatments. Aquatronics makes an ultra-wide spectrum antibiotic blend of nitrofurazone and kanamycin called Spectrogram that may suit your needs. If after a few days of using a particular antibiotic there appears to be no or little improvement in the health of the fish, try another one. These are just a few of the many available products on the market, so do your research to insure that the medications you choose are safe to use in conjunction with each other, if you decide to mix them.

The over use of antibiotics for treating fish is the same as with people. The repeated or continued use of antibiotics creates selection pressure favoring the growth of antibiotic-resistant mutants. Our advice is not to use antibiotics as a cure-all treatment whenever you feel the fish "might" need it, but only when it is necessary.

There's more there, but it gives you an idea.

Is there a reason you're asking about antibiotics?

[Colby Dixon]

Why comment on it then?

I could be pedantic and come back with something snide like "why comment on my comment then"...but I'll refrain (oops, I just did)

The reason I commented on it was I was asking for a thread split as I felt my question had been "hijacked". As I stated, I would be interested in a discussion on the ethical use of antibiotics in the aquarium as a learning exercise for myself, however not in this thread.

Perhaps it is a cultural or language confusion, but I found the tone of both Philippe Burnel and Bas Pels to be quite condescending. Implying that I wouldn't agree that people are more important than fish because I do not have any qualms with responsible use of antibiotics in the ornamental fish hobby.

Not sure I can help all that much but did find the following

Thank You, that was exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

Is there a reason you're asking about antibiotics?

Yes, there is. I recently had a run in with some nasty blue-green algae in a planted tank and treated it with erythromyacin (spelling?). I was considering using to to get rid of the cyanobacteria in my Cichlid tanks and was concerned about "crashing the filter"...

Oh...and I also help out on another Cichlid forum in the "Health" section, so I try to learn as much about these subjects as I can...

[Bas Pels]

Then why did you post?

One option might be because Phillipe is recognised as an expert, and I'm not. As my writing might be far from the mainstream, Phillipe might have felt invited to say 'no, your opinion is not really strange' , at least, that is how I read it.

Regarding your remark in language or culture, English is not my own language, so I can certainly have missed the proper tone, and Dutch people are said to be somewhat blunt. I know this, so I try not to offend, but can still be too clear / persuative, thus blunt.

Regarding my own opinion, I was convinced not to use antibiotics anymore only last June, in a lecture by a vet-aquarist on topics such as how can your hobby harm you (with nasty pics).

In any case, it is not common in NL not to use antibioticsfor fishes

lastly, sorry for any offend I might have caused.

Bas

[Ken Boorman]

IMHO, unless you can work out what is causing the cyanobacteria to grow in the first place, it will probably come back at some stage. Then you would have to dose with your antibiotic again. I see that as a rather extreme course of action. As far as I am aware there are no antibiotics available which are specifically active against cyanobacteria only.
I think I would decrease the light for a while. Lower the agitation from the filter - switch to a sponge filter if you have to (temporarily), this should increase the amount of CO2 in the water which is something I believe cyano doesn't like. I would increase the water changes too.

If you want to start a new topic about fighting cyanobacteria in your tank, I will gladly split off some of the replies if you think that action is appropriate.

Ken

[Lisachromis]

Why comment on it then?

The reason I commented on it was I was asking for a thread split as I felt my question had been "hijacked". As I stated, I would be interested in a discussion on the ethical use of antibiotics in the aquarium as a learning exercise for myself, however not in this thread.

Perhaps it is a cultural or language confusion, but I found the tone of both Philippe Burnel and Bas Pels to be quite condescending. Implying that I wouldn't agree that people are more important than fish because I do not have any qualms with responsible use of antibiotics in the ornamental fish hobby.

Personally, I don't see the thread being hijacked with opinions on antibiotic use in aquariums. You asked about antibiotics. Someone is bound to put an opinion in. As long as it doesn't go into nastiness, it's fine. If people continue to talk on it and it's not part of the discussion anymore, it would be split into another topic.

As to Bas and Philippe's tone, I believe that's a problem of English not being their first language. I don't think they're being condescending at all. I think Bas explained as he best could and Philippe was basically saying "I agree with what Bas said". That's the problem of only being able to read what's said without knowing the tone of what's said or meant. That is one problem with forums/emails/etc. that does pop up.

As to the cyanobacteria, I agree with Ken. If you cannot figure out why it's appearing in the first place, it's going to keep coming back to haunt you.

[Bas Pels]

IMHO, unless you can work out what is causing the cyanobacteria to grow in the first place, it will probably come back at some stage.

This send me to the top again, but unless I'm missing something, I can't find any reference to cyano bacteria.

Seedy inquired after effects from antibiotica on 'good bacteria', I think she meant the ammonia --> --> nitrate bacteria.

[Lisachromis]

Is there a reason you're asking about antibiotics?

Yes, there is. I recently had a run in with some nasty blue-green algae in a planted tank and treated it with erythromyacin (spelling?). I was considering using to to get rid of the cyanobacteria in my Cichlid tanks and was concerned about "crashing the filter"...

Oh...and I also help out on another Cichlid forum in the "Health" section, so I try to learn as much about these subjects as I can...

I think is what Ken is referring to.

[Bas Pels]

Yes, so do I

Thank you

[Colby Dixon]

IMHO, unless you can work out what is causing the cyanobacteria to grow in the first place, it will probably come back at some stage. Then you would have to dose with your antibiotic again. I see that as a rather extreme course of action. As far as I am aware there are no antibiotics available which are specifically active against cyanobacteria only.
I think I would decrease the light for a while. Lower the agitation from the filter - switch to a sponge filter if you have to (temporarily), this should increase the amount of CO2 in the water which is something I believe cyano doesn't like. I would increase the water changes too.


Ken

It's under control now in the planted tank. I did actually change out the HOB to a powerhead driven sponge. This has helped both the plant growth and seems to keep the blue green slime at bay... I am not sure why you consider using Erythromyacin to be an extreme action..., but I had tried everything else and needed it knocked out before it killed off everything! Nothing eats bluegreen algae as it is generally toxic to most creatures.....this stuff was not just smothering the plants, but actually TOXIC to them as holes would appear anywhere the Cyano had grown enough to be visible...Mechanical removal was also not working....This stuff seemed to grow before your eyes.... I also switched my lighting from a 50/50 actinic PC to a 7000k and 10,000k PC...this has also helped. I am considering a DIY CO[sub]2[/sub] system for the tanks as well...As for water changes...nitrates do not enter into cyanobacteria growth as they can fix their own Nitrogen....