Tank size

[BarbaraWooton]

Hello, I'm new to these species of fish, and wanted to know if you think that any could be kept in a 125 gallon, 6 foot by 18 inches, or if a larger tank would be necessary. I don't really have a particular species in mind, but I'd like to keep something endangered, to help if I could. I'm much more of a Victorian person, but I keep those in 55 or 75 gallon tanks, and the larger tanks are just holding basic things at this point.

Thanks!

[Vincent Fu]

I have 1M+2F Katria katria and 1M+2F Ptychochromis grandidieri in a 125G tank. I actually used to have 6 of each in the same tank and they did fine and spawned regularly. These (and other Ptychochromis spp) would be fine in such a tank for life and might even be ok in a 75G tank.

I have some ~3" Paretroplus spp (kieneri and menarambo) in a 100G tank (same 72x18 footprint) and they're doing fine too. Fish from this genus grow larger and are generally more aggressive, and I've read that they may need a larger tank as adults.

I've never kept any of the Paratilapia spp.

There's an ACA member from San Antonio named Jose who has been very successful breeding these fish. He could probably give you a lot of info. I've seen him use the username ciclasoman on a few forums, possibly even this one. This is his Aquabid auction:

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwcichlidso&1239051220

[sidguppy]

with the damba's (Paretroplus maculatus, P menarambo) is groupsize that's important

in a pair or a small group it's sheer luck if things stay nice

just keep 8 or more and you have a fair margin of error, just like Vics.
a 125g is big enough for 8 Damda's. they grow very slowly.

the damii is another one that's not overly agressive; I haven't got any experience myself with adults, but my younger damii's are highly social and always together. they're quite mellow

from what i hear the Paretroplus kieneri is even more docile.


but the Lamena's are supposed to be real killers, pound for pound one of the baddest madfish around.

Ptychochromis has character but they don't kill, especially not in a 125G. i have the grandidieri and the oligacanthus Nosy Be. both species fight and damage fins, but they don't destroy in a roomy tank.

you can keep 2 pairs in a 125G.
Ptychochromis and Paretroplus will mix just fine

my experience with Paratilapia is less positive. they're OK to other fish, but i find it very hard to match a pair. even well mated pairs can and do break up and if that happens a 125g is not nearly big enough to keep the male from killing the female.
heck, even my 315g isn't big enough.....and mine aren't adults or aren't fully grown; they are about 7" or so.
many Paratilapia males grow to a much larger size.

because of the constant war, the stresslevels, the wounds and the infectious diseases they develop again and again after trashing each other I will stop keeping Paratilapia as a pair.

a single fish will replace them. but i can't be buggered anymore with that ongoing mini war in my tank.
i've spoken to a fair number of hobbyists who have very similar experiences.

very tough fish, doesn't bother non paratilapia's, but to each other they're highly antisocial.

[BarbaraWooton]

Thanks so much for the feedback and the recommendations. I'm doing general research at this point, and wanted to start looking at different species that might work for me. I try not to acquire fish that I know nothing about, and don't have an adequate tank for in the future.

[Sharpfish]

Your wanting to research these fish is a great first step. The one point not mentioned is you can start them out in a smaller tank like a 55, as long as the fish are only a few inches long (3" at most). The tank would need to be have plenty of hiding places. This won't last long bigger tanks would need to be ready for them as they grow and get closer to spawning age and size. I think Sids assessment of the varying species is pretty spot on. I have dealt with Jose on a few occasions he is very knowledgable and has good fish stock.

[BarbaraWooton]

Your wanting to research these fish is a great first step. The one point not mentioned is you can start them out in a smaller tank like a 55, as long as the fish are only a few inches long (3" at most). The tank would need to be have plenty of hiding places. This won't last long bigger tanks would need to be ready for them as they grow and get closer to spawning age and size. I think Sids assessment of the varying species is pretty spot on. I have dealt with Jose on a few occasions he is very knowledgable and has good fish stock.

I had a talk with Jose, and he's awesome! He is going to provide me with some Paretroplus maculatus to grow out. I have 2 125's to work with when the fish grow out. I also several 75's and 90's. He let me know what species he would recommend for these spaces, and his advice was exactly what was given here.

I thank you all for the great information given. I'll continue researching, but I've been lead to believe that this should be fairly easy...at least my part. Watch the fish, don't mess with them too much, regular water changes, quality food, and providing enough space seems to be the best advice I've heard.

[sidguppy]

wow, great job!

Paretroplus maculatus is one of the most beautiful cichlids around and their behaviour, their way of grouping, the way they dig the sand....nothing short of stunning!

they are THE CENTERPIECE in my tank.

once you get bitten by the Damba Bug; there ain't no cure.....

they are indeed hardy, undemanding, eat about ANYthing you feed them and they're very easy on the waterparameters.
as long as you have a group, yes it can be done.
any idea how many youngsters you get?
8 or more would be best.

the huge agression will not be there for some time; they grow slowly and as juvies they're quite peaceful. it's when they pass 6-7" and start to breed when they get nastier.
even then I found their agression quite manageble, but then I've got a group as well....

they're like mild Tropheus, but without the bloat issue!

the one thing wich is required with Mada's is warmth.
they don't like cold water at all, so keep the tank warm at all costs. I've heard some horror stories about Mada's getting the cold, then the itch, then the mass death

fortunately they can cope with a LOT of salt, right up to where you can label the tank as a marine tank...
itch cannot.

finally, don 't think about using live plants for deco, cause a Paretroplus is like a tiny horse and you can quote me on that 1

[BarbaraWooton]

wow, great job!

Paretroplus maculatus is one of the most beautiful cichlids around and their behaviour, their way of grouping, the way they dig the sand....nothing short of stunning!

they are THE CENTERPIECE in my tank.

once you get bitten by the Damba Bug; there ain't no cure.....

they are indeed hardy, undemanding, eat about ANYthing you feed them and they're very easy on the waterparameters.
as long as you have a group, yes it can be done.
any idea how many youngsters you get?
8 or more would be best.

the huge agression will not be there for some time; they grow slowly and as juvies they're quite peaceful. it's when they pass 6-7" and start to breed when they get nastier.
even then I found their agression quite manageble, but then I've got a group as well....

they're like mild Tropheus, but without the bloat issue!

the one thing wich is required with Mada's is warmth.
they don't like cold water at all, so keep the tank warm at all costs. I've heard some horror stories about Mada's getting the cold, then the itch, then the mass death

fortunately they can cope with a LOT of salt, right up to where you can label the tank as a marine tank...
itch cannot.

finally, don 't think about using live plants for deco, cause a Paretroplus is like a tiny horse and you can quote me on that 1

I believe I'm getting 6. Do you think that will be enough?

Thanks for the information about the heat and salt. I'm using aquarium salt, should I be using marine salt?

[Sharpfish]

I have gotten Ptychochromis oligacanthus and Pty. grandideri from Jose. All are doing great, both of my groups are showing interest in spawning now. I am trying to get a tank together for the Paretroplus maculatus. Hopefully he will still have some by the time I get it all pulled together.

I have a large pair of Paretroplus menerambo. The one thing I have found that they absolutely love is snails. They eat as many as you can throw in the tank. Size, shape or species it does not matter they devaste all forms of snail. With those rat teeth no snail stands a chance. I imagine it would be the same for all Paretroplus species.

[polleni]

Six Pe maculatus will do fine, no problem with tanks between 125 - 150 gallons.

Pe menarambo get large, much larger than their cousins, you can't keep 6 of them in this kind of tank. A 2.5 (8 foot we believe) tank is the least you can use to house 6 adults in. We have got 5 adults (6 years old) and the smaller one is 32 cm TL (the larger one is around the 40 cm mark - TL). Moreover, they can get nasty to each other. The shape of the fish given I would say that the length of the tank is the critical factor.
Pe damii will grow slower but they do grow in the end. And they are massive fish - considerably more deep bodied than the maculatus or the menarambo. Good news is that they can breed quite close to each other as long as they don't see their "opponent" - large bogwood will work fine, when you look at the tank from the top, you can see pairs guarding eggs at the opposite sides of the same piece.

Snails? For Pe maculatus and Pe menarambo this is their favorite food. What you have heard is true, it doesn't matter how many snails you throw in the tank. They will keep on searching the whole day till they are sure none is left.
Pe dambabe love them, too. We grow some in Manchester and they are fed snails every other day.
If you decide to feed them snails (strongly advised to do so) throw the snails in the middle of the tank so the fish can get them and they don't get a chance to get in your filter. They can easily clog any filter or - still worse - block the impeller.

For Pe damii and Pe nourissati this doesn't stand true. They will eat it if nothing else is on offer but they will not rush to it. Sometimes you can see the snail moving and the fish not even paying attention to them.

George & Marina

[BarbaraWooton]

Six Pe maculatus will do fine, no problem with tanks between 125 - 150 gallons.

Pe menarambo get large, much larger than their cousins, you can't keep 6 of them in this kind of tank. A 2.5 (8 foot we believe) tank is the least you can use to house 6 adults in. We have got 5 adults (6 years old) and the smaller one is 32 cm TL (the larger one is around the 40 cm mark - TL). Moreover, they can get nasty to each other. The shape of the fish given I would say that the length of the tank is the critical factor.
Pe damii will grow slower but they do grow in the end. And they are massive fish - considerably more deep bodied than the maculatus or the menarambo. Good news is that they can breed quite close to each other as long as they don't see their "opponent" - large bogwood will work fine, when you look at the tank from the top, you can see pairs guarding eggs at the opposite sides of the same piece.

Snails? For Pe maculatus and Pe menarambo this is their favorite food. What you have heard is true, it doesn't matter how many snails you throw in the tank. They will keep on searching the whole day till they are sure none is left.
Pe dambabe love them, too. We grow some in Manchester and they are fed snails every other day.
If you decide to feed them snails (strongly advised to do so) throw the snails in the middle of the tank so the fish can get them and they don't get a chance to get in your filter. They can easily clog any filter or - still worse - block the impeller.

For Pe damii and Pe nourissati this doesn't stand true. They will eat it if nothing else is on offer but they will not rush to it. Sometimes you can see the snail moving and the fish not even paying attention to them.

George & Marina

Thank you so much for the advice. I'm looking forward to acquiring these fish, and getting more excited by the minute.

I don't have a tank large enough to safely keep the P. menarambo, and I've crossed that off the list for fish that I have interest in, at least for the moment. My wonderful husband is considering building some large tanks in the future, and I'll look at the availability at that time.

I have also been looking into the possibility of Paretroplus kieneri. If I am correct in my research, this would be a fish that could be kept in a 75-90 gallon tank, being 4 foot? Would this suffice for a colony of 6-8 or would a larger tank be recommended?

This is a whole new research path for me. I'm definitely a newbie when dealing with these, and any and all advice is appreciated.

[polleni]

You are lucky, in this respect. Concerning Malagacy cichlids I can see three "generations" of hobbyists. First came the ones who introduced them in the hobby: the late Jean-Claude Nourissat, Patrick de Rham, Paul Loiselle, Oliver Lucanus, Laif Demason.. (possibly a few more). They didn't just introduced them but they bred them, too, in large ponds or tanks. Then came the second "generation" who managed to keep them in tanks and find out what they need to breed and raise their fry (something like fine tuning the process) like Sonia Guinane, Dave Tourle, Tom Williams, Georg Albering, M. Figueredo, M. Zapater, Alex Saunders, Michael Nigrini and, may I add, myself (among others - my memory doesn't help lately). Last, came the third "generation" of hobbyists (like Jose - who is a very dedicated hobbyist indeed) who give the fish what they really want - which is large homes (huge aquaria or ponds) and next to perfect husbandry. All in all, my feeling is that we have come to a point where breeding most of the Malagasy cichlids is no more a secret. The whole keeping and breeding process is quite similar to breeding large central American cichlids with some differences when it comes to raising the fry. Admittedly, there are factors which play a different role in Malagasy cichlids (temperature for instance seems to play a key role for triggering Paretroplines to breed) but all those issues have been addressed to a great extend. What we really need now is more and more dedicated hobbyists keeping these species in their tanks, especially since their future in their natural habitat seems dire, to say the least.

Just my opinion of course.

[BarbaraWooton]

You are lucky, in this respect. Concerning Malagacy cichlids I can see three "generations" of hobbyists. First came the ones who introduced them in the hobby: the late Jean-Claude Nourissat, Patrick de Rham, Paul Loiselle, Oliver Lucanus, Laif Demason.. (possibly a few more). They didn't just introduced them but they bred them, too, in large ponds or tanks. Then came the second "generation" who managed to keep them in tanks and find out what they need to breed and raise their fry (something like fine tuning the process) like Sonia Guinane, Dave Tourle, Tom Williams, Georg Albering, M. Figueredo, M. Zapater, Alex Saunders, Michael Nigrini and, may I add, myself (among others - my memory doesn't help lately). Last, came the third "generation" of hobbyists (like Jose - who is a very dedicated hobbyist indeed) who give the fish what they really want - which is large homes (huge aquaria or ponds) and next to perfect husbandry. All in all, my feeling is that we have come to a point where breeding most of the Malagasy cichlids is no more a secret. The whole keeping and breeding process is quite similar to breeding large central American cichlids with some differences when it comes to raising the fry. Admittedly, there are factors which play a different role in Malagasy cichlids (temperature for instance seems to play a key role for triggering Paretroplines to breed) but all those issues have been addressed to a great extend. What we really need now is more and more dedicated hobbyists keeping these species in their tanks, especially since their future in their natural habitat seems dire, to say the least.

Just my opinion of course.

I agree with you, on every point. I'm extremely lucky that others have found the magic combination to keep and breed these cichlids, and that dedicated hobbyists are key in keeping these species alive. I work with CARES, and my personal interest leans towards Lake Victorian cichlids. My water perimeters and tank sizes are perfect for colonies of these fish, and I have long term goals in keeping them and distributing them. I'm having some small successes right now, and I'm thrilled with each one.

That being said, I also have interest in Malagasy cichlids. I have a couple of larger sized tanks that I'm willing (and eager) to dedicate to a few species that will work in these tanks. I'd like to permanently devote these tanks to colonies of these fish, and hopefully help spread the word on the plight of these special fish. Because of the tank size requirement, I won't be able to do as many species of these as I do with Victorians (I'm keeping 8 species that are at risk), but I can keep a few, and hopefully keep them well.

On to questions, am I making a correct choice in assuming I can keep P. kieneri in a 75 gallon (4 foot) tank? Or will this species require larger tanks to be happy? I do have a 6' tank, but hoping to use that for something else in the future. I really like the looks, and the smaller size, of this species, and this is one I'd like to add.

The advice being given is to not add plants, as they will be shredded and eaten. Does this appy to hearty species such as Anubius as well? I've had some success keeping this with other Africans, and would use it instead of a preferred plant such as Amazon swords.

Thanks for all of the advice and help.

[sidguppy]

The advice being given is to not add plants, as they will be shredded and eaten. Does this appy to hearty species such as Anubius as well?

yes

I have my damii juvies in a planted tank, but the only reason i can get away with it is because
1: they're still juvies
2: there are a LOT of plants in that tank and I also add plants from another tank.

all plants in that tank are damaged, including the Anubias.
Anubias aren't being destroyed yet because i also plant Echinodorus as a foodplant.
my experience is that Echinodorus are very tasty, so i distract my damii from the Anubias with a better tasting plant....

George told me that adult damii are like lawnmowers and I agree......if these 8 little fishes will reach a full 8" or more, they will chomp up a lot of herbs.

my larger Paretroplus (the maculatus) chow up anything green. actually I feed them the pruning leftovers from my planted tanks.
they too have a taste; Potamogeton and Echinodorus are preferred over others, but they also like duckweed

I have a strong suspicion that Ptychochromis is also a herbivore, despite the fact that it looks and behaves a bit like an eartheater.
everytime I feed plants they lay big green turds and what comes out did go in at some time before.

I also supply all my Mada fish with plenty green flakes like OSI spirulina

[polleni]

Sidguppy has tried a lot of plants which probably tells you the whole story.
In addition, you can include the Vallisnerias (any kind of it) in their menu. They will eat it with great pleasure. Mind you, they will also expose and eat the roots..

As for the Pe damii, my guess is that if properly kept, they will hit the 10 inch mark by the age of 4-5 years and then go on growing and growing. It seems their final adult size is closer to 15-16"...

George & Marina

[BarbaraWooton]

I thought I'd share my new babies. The tank is a 75 gallon, and it has 5 Paretroplus maculatus and 6 Ptychochromis grandidieri. The permanent tank is a 125 gallon, but I don't think they quite are ready for that. The P. maculatus are 2.5 inches, the grandidieri are 1.5-2 inches.

[sidguppy]

good choice!

these 2 species mix really well

the tiny Paretroplus are cute, they look a lot like something out of the Finding Nemo movie

the coloration of the maculatus is a bit odd. mine are much more green-grey with red fins and the black spot is more obvious, but maybe they change looks at 2"

when I bought mine, the smallest were 2.5" or so and the rest were 3-3.5"
now they're a fair bit bigger than that.

with these tiny youngsters you can add plants; the trickis to set up more than enough!
so the growth of the plants easily copes with the amount of plants being eaten

the best way is to contact another local hobbyist who has a surplus of Vallisneria, Duckweed, Hydrilla etc.
otherwise things get expensive

another useful plant is Floating Water Lettuce (Pistia stratoides). it's a pest in many tanks and indoor ponds (as well as out there, in the tropics) and Paretroplus maculatus easily dapts to feeding on the surface

while they're busy dismantling your floaters, the rest of the plants are reltively untouched

this trick does not work with damii however! at least not with mine.....
the damii is a much more bottomsubstrate oriented fish than the agile maculatus

i can see this cause they always gnaw through the stems of Potamogeton, but as soon as it's floating they leave it umnharmed, mostly

following what George writes about Vallisneria, well, this explains all the loose leaves I keep finding.
looks like mine finally found out Vallisneria tastes good

another thing that I can see is that in the beginning they grow very very slowly.
like a Bonsai fish.
but as soon as they reach a certain size the growth starts to speed up quite a bit!