Interesting Behaviour

[chris murphy]

I have been observing some interesting behaviour for the last few weeks between L. caudopunctatus, N. brevis and multifasciatus. I added a pair of adult caudopunctatus to a 180 litre tank first, along with a group of cyprichromis. A few days later I added 4 multifasciatus and a trio of brevis, all adults. All fish were added in their own shells, with about 10 excess shells randomly scattered around the tank. The tank is about 3.5 feet long. I first observed that the caudopunctatus wanted to take over the largest shell in the tank, occupied by a female and male brevis. The male brevis defended his shell quite well so the caudopunctatus moved on to the multifasciatus colony. Both caudopunks tried for about 48 - 72 hours to extract the female multifasciatus (with fry) from the shell with no success. After this period the caudopunctatus then started to pile sand over and around the shell, as if somehow trying to cover the shell, either forcing the occupants out or killing them?
I actually had to step in at one stage (after 1 day of digging) as the mouth of the shell (escargot) was almost covered. When I moved the shell (with occupants in situ) the caudopuncatus stopped bothering them.
I found this really interesting to watch and I have never read any accounts of such behaviour. I would love to hear peoples opinions on this behaviour.

Regards,

Chris

[James Shingler]

Interesting but I dunno if that would have forced the multies out. When my multies were in a community tank they practically covered their own shells with sand. I guess to keep larger fish out of the shells and raised young under nearby rocks, as I guess they found the shells not enough protection. I just overcame shell competition aggression by adding more shells of various sizes so each species had more than enough of the size and type of shell they choose (generally too small for the bigger fish to enter when given the choice).

Always interesting to keep different shellys together. They do not always seem to agree to stay where put and have their own ideas about where the sand and shells should be moved to.

[Benoit]

Hi, there is no record of such actions because nobody leaves several shelldwellers all at risk of seeing kill other.

Happy, new year !

[chris murphy]

I know hat you mean about the multis, right now they are barricaded (their own doing) into their shell.

No fish were intentionally at risk during this process, as I always try to pay optimum attention to ensure all fish are happy and safe.

All fish are currently protecting their respective fry and the caudopunks homicidal tendencies have subsided for now.

I actually saw caudopunk eggs for the 1st time. They are an olive green and a lot bigger than I expected them to be.

Unfortunately my camera was not good enough to pick them up. My tank is bow fronted and the shell (with the eggs in it) is about 8 inches back.

The main reason I am keeping three species of shelly together is because I stripped down my fishroom, due to moving house.

I only have enough room for one tank at the moment and I thought Id get the maximum enjoyment from shellys.

Personally I think you get the best from shellys in a species only tank, but their interactions with other shellys is fascinating (although in the lake these interactions are unlikely to happen).

[James Shingler]

You may enjoy this video (not mine) includes two of them and others in the wild.
http://www.aquanet.tv/Video/172
Love this stuff never having been to the lake myself.
Yep I guess many do live quite separate lives often quite far apart, though the punks shown seem to come from and breed in a rocky community environment.
No brevis in the video, I think, not sure why.
Maybe in a different one if you look around dunno.?
To be honest I am not sure yours is a bad mix given more space long term. I had a 200g with quite a few small shelly species and rock dwelling species, sadly I messed it up adding ever larger fish.

All the best James

[tanganyikanhunt]

What my friend Benoit was trying to tell you is to make other arrangements for your fish. They will kill each other in the situation you have put them in. Not a maybe.

[chris murphy]

I appreciate the advice. I am an experienced keeper and only ever offer the best of care to my fish. If any real chance of a fish being harmed occurred I would have intervened and separated the fish to another tank.

I have spent thousands of hours monitoring and studying the fish I keep in captivity. If I am not satisfied that my fish are 100% happy I will re-scape my tanks, change cohabitants, or put them in to a species only tank. I do whatever I have to do until they are 100% happy.

I can see how any person reading the post would feel I was placing fish in the way of danger unnecessarily, but this was not the case. I would never do that. When I said the caudopunks tried to remove the multis from their shell, it sounded far worse than what happened in actuality. We all know how cichlids feign attempts to bite or pull at fish, no contact was made at all. Im sure you know multis are feisty, and can handle confrontations. If I thought the female multi could not defend herself I would have re-homed her. Initially I tried to let the fish decide where they wanted to live. Because this did not work I arranged a secluded section of the tank (re-scaped) for each breeding pair. Harmony ensued

I appreciate that you are concerned about the safety of not only your own fish, but all fish, as I am too . Please rest assured I am an animal lover. I also would appreciate if you didn't state your opinion in a definite manner, such as "your fish will die", as this is only your opinion.

In my experience these particular fish are at their most aggressive when looking for a spawning site or guarding eggs/ fry, which all of them are, and they are getting on just fine. All fish are adult. There are very few definite's in fishkeeping and I always stand to be proved wrong, which is why I always try to offer advice with the phrase "In my opinion...experience etc etc" attached

Here are a few pics of the tank in question. Unfortunately the newest caudopunk fry are too small to picture (its amazing how green they are), but there are some bigger fry that were evicted from their parents care. All fish are living in peaceful conditions, with no incursions into each others nests.





My multis decided to excavate their pit. They are down to the base of the tank now.

[James Shingler]

Looks to me that rather than killing each other they are all breeding.
A colony grown up from each would be great but I guess that is where problems could arise but I guess you are ready to change as the situation dictates.
Seems you have that touch that fish I would find difficult to get to coexist in a 31/2 foot long tank do well for you.

Always interesting to see what fish will mix with what for various folk in various tank sizes, what succeeds and what does not seems to me to be more of an art than a science.

All the best James

[chris murphy]

I agree James, experience has thought me to take each day as it comes with fishkeeping. Peace today could be anarchy tomorrow

more of an art than a science

As Einstein said, "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits". I'm just persistent, lucky and a little stupid for trying it in the first place. The mixes that some people make work are what make fishkeeping such a great hobby, it never gets boring and you keep on learning.

I re-scaped the tank at least 10 times to get the perfect mix of sand area with rock cover and line of sight breakage. Its weird, but with tanganyikan fish you can nearly tell instantly if fish are happy with their "territory". What I have now is working so it stays like that. If it breaks down Ill move a single species of fish on. As fry reach 3 months Ill give them away to friends.

That video you posted was great, I enjoyed watching it. Its always great to see these fish in their natural habitat.

[chris murphy]

I played around with my camera and managed to get some average pictures of the multi and caudopunk fry. The brevis fry are still in the shell, even though I did see the mother take one in her mouth, after it had fled the shell.

Small Video of Caudopunk Fry
http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l159/ ... I_0480.flv

Multifasciatus Fry

[chris murphy]

I have a group of N.Multifasciatus living beside the Caudopunks and they both had fry appear from their shells within a few days of each other. The Caudopunk fry are double the size of the N.Multifasciatus fry already, and approximately the same age.

The fry are perfectly camouflaged with the sand, as you would expect.

[chris murphy]

I have been observing some fascinating behavior over the last 5 days. The parents started to cover their own shell in sand, around 11pm each night. The young fry were still living in the shell during the day. At night they were staying close-by, though you could see they were actively seeking the shell, their home for the last few weeks. Each morning when I turned the lights on around 8am, the shell was excavated again by the parents.
I predicted this behavior was the parents way of getting the fry prepared for life on their own. An eviction notice if you like! Today I noticed the parents laid about 50 eggs in the shell, and are trying hard to shepherd the juveniles away. It seems to me the parents are somehow aware they have the propensity to kill the fry as their new maternal/paternal instincts start to kick in, which is why they are trying so hard to move them on. The parents are even picking the fry in their mouths and depositing them at the edge of their territory. Its not working!
Caudopunks have a reputation for eating or killing their fry, but this kind of parenting is astounding. They may well kill fry when their instincts kick in enough to protect their new progeny, but before they do they display amazing parenting skills.
Videos and Pics to follow: