Ruby Red and German Red Opinions Wanted

[Alton]

I recently got a trio of German Reds and have 2 F1 Ruby Red Females. I read an article how these are the same species with one being Linebreed and the other not. I would like your opinion if I breed these together would you consider them to be Hybrids? I am not trying to begin a huge debate just looking to find out how others look at this. Personally I see it as the same species but also do not want to be breeding hybrids either. All input will be greatly appreciated. Thanks All

[Alton]

I found the article I read and it is by Marc Elieson, Here is the link:

http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/red_peacocks.php

[Lisachromis]

I'm not sure if they are the same species. I've never done any real checks to see what the original fish were. That said, if they are, I see nothing wrong in 'crossing' those lines as they both are the same species. I assume they tried to breed for something specific in those colour lines. If you cross those colours, they'll still be the same species, but I don't know how they'd turn out looks wise.

[Alton]

Thanks Lisa

[Philippe Burnel]

I'm not sure if they are the same species. I've never done any real checks to see what the original fish were. That said, if they are, I see nothing wrong in 'crossing' those lines as they both are the same species. I assume they tried to breed for something specific in those colour lines. If you cross those colours, they'll still be the same species, but I don't know how they'd turn out looks wise.

So you can cross without any problem fishes such as Tropheus sp black "Pemba" and T. sp black "Rutunga" without any problem... that's fine

[Alton]

Philippe, I do not know the species your talking about. But the ones I am talking about here are the same species with different trade names. They originate from the same species. One has been linebreed and one has not or is another linebreed variant of the original fish. At least this is what I have read about this. Why I made this post was to verify it from the experts on here.

[dogofwar]

I think a better analogy would be whether it is OK to cross one fancy, line bred Tropheus with another strain of fancy, line bred Tropheus of the same species.

Matt

I'm not sure if they are the same species. I've never done any real checks to see what the original fish were. That said, if they are, I see nothing wrong in 'crossing' those lines as they both are the same species. I assume they tried to breed for something specific in those colour lines. If you cross those colours, they'll still be the same species, but I don't know how they'd turn out looks wise.

So you can cross without any problem fishes such as Tropheus sp black "Pemba" and T. sp black "Rutunga" without any problem... that's fine

[James Shingler]

Erm both are line bred cichlids. Both from the same original variant?
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/red_peacocks.php
And have been crossed (if that is the right term) a number of times to give the types we now see in the hobby.
Yes?

Natural variants are a different matter. If you cross those you are making something new and it will not be a pure variant.

They are ornamental cichlids once in the hobby and you can cross what you like.

But please do not sell them as new variants but sell em as crosses and/or line bred fish or even better keep them to yourself.

My guess is if you cross these two lines (Ruby Red and German Red) you will get a fish less coloured than iether original line.
You would then have to select hard and breed for a few generations just to get back to the colour of the original lines.

All the best James

[Zeusterae]

Well, like the other users have already said, these fish are the same specie only obtained from different breeders in different countries to improve the red colour of the origional specie... that means that both Ruby red and German red are in reality just an Aulonocara stuartgranti maleri chipoka with a different fancy name, in other words if they breed they would be Aulonocara stuargranti chipoka and nothing else, but not hybrids.

e.g. if you buy Aulonocara stuartgranti chipoka F0 in USA, and I buy an other one F0 as well but in New Zealand and We both breed them for several years in our respective countries, and after several generations (F5-F6) we decide to trade some of them (to change a bit our fish blood line), the result of the crossbreed of these fish with our own fish will be just Aulonocara stuargranti chipoka (as before) no matter if in your country you called them Aulonocara very red and I called Aulonocara super red...

but I have a doubt about what you said before "I recently got a trio of German Reds and have 2 F1 Ruby Red Females" so far as I know and has been discussed, The origen of these breed lines is a wild fish "Aulonocara stuartgranti chipoka F0", if you said that they are F1, this means that they are even more close to the original specie that the German red that you just got and the crossbreed of these two lines will go in detriment (will corrupt) of all the effort of the breeder to obtain a the "German red" that is supposed to be way more red than the original fish.

[dogofwar]

"that means that both Ruby red and German red are in reality just an Aulonocara stuartgranti maleri chipoka with a different fancy name, in other words if they breed they would be Aulonocara stuargranti chipoka and nothing else, but not hybrids."

It would be really hard to prove that fish sold around the world as Ruby Red and/or German Red peacocks ONLY were developed by line breeding exceptionally colored individuals of a single species and geographic varient of A. stuartgranti.

Matt

[Zeusterae]

"that means that both Ruby red and German red are in reality just an Aulonocara stuartgranti maleri chipoka with a different fancy name, in other words if they breed they would be Aulonocara stuargranti chipoka and nothing else, but not hybrids."

It would be really hard to prove that fish sold around the world as Ruby Red and/or German Red peacocks ONLY were developed by line breeding exceptionally colored individuals of a single species and geographic varient of A. stuartgranti.

Matt

That is completely TRUE, most of these theories are just related with the fishkeepers knowledge (or what we think we know) related with these bloodlines and as you have mentioned they could be result of other variants such stuargranti chipoka, chidunga rocks, or maleri island... who know for sure!!!....and as you have also mentioned, it is quite hard to probe "that they are or aren't the same specie", but not impossible nowdays (a DNA test would be enough to probe it though).

For know I think that the best chance is keep it separated or as other guy said, breed them but let the buyers know that are crossbreed of these two lines in advanced.

Cheers,
Miguel