Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

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Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby Mack Emmons » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:06 am

I recently got a hold of one of these, although i was not looking for one.

I can't seem to find any type of information on these, and seems to be a name conceived by exporters/importers.

Is this fish known more formally as anything?

From looking around, they seem to be related in some way to G. brasiliensis. I believe they are Geophagus iitapicuruensis, which were originally described as Geophagus brasiliensis itapicuruensis.

Thoughts?

The fish is still settling in, when i get a chance i will post pics.
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Re: Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby Mack Emmons » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:59 am

Here are some pics. Notice the dark lateral band.

Image

Image

Sorry about the mediocre quality, the fish was being difficult and shy.
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Re: Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby Dutch Dude » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:44 am

I never heard of specie Sao Paulo but they are definitely brasiliensoids. I know there is a rare specie labeled as "Geophagus" brasiliensis Sao Francisco with a lot of orange colorations. What is the size of the fish?
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Re: Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby Mack Emmons » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:48 pm

Dutch Dude wrote:I never heard of specie Sao Paulo but they are definitely brasiliensoids. I know there is a rare specie labeled as "Geophagus" brasiliensis Sao Francisco with a lot of orange colorations. What is the size of the fish?


Around 4 inches.
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Re: Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby bantamweight1911 » Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:54 pm

Hi,

Please compare them to my fish - Bahia Blue, also I believe sometimes called Sau Fransisco

Image
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Re: Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby Tommi » Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:21 pm

Now when you have started quessing, what is this species. About 6-7 cm and breeding every third week.

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Re: Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby Mack Emmons » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:56 am

Although my pics don't show it, my fish is showing a considerable amount of orange/red coloration, with it most dominant in the fins. Although it is not as brilliantly color as bantamweight1911's. What throws me is the dark horizontal band on mine, is this typical for stressed/juvenile fish?
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Re: Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby viejo66 » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:03 pm

'Lumper' that I am, I would place all of the above as local varieties of BRAZILIENSIS (I can't wait till Kullander gets going on these :lol: ). Of course, taking this stance is rather hypocritical coming from someone who gets offended by those that consider all 3-spot HEMICHROMIS merely as 'red jewels' :? ....
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Re: Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby bantamweight1911 » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:43 pm

They are not necessarily Braziliensis type, they could be Gymnogeophagus type

1 thing is certain, mine are VERY different to Braziliensis, for a start they have maxed out at 5 inches.
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Re: Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby Mack Emmons » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:02 pm

Okay, so we have limited it down brasiliensoids or that a fish of the Gymnogeophagus. Gymnogeophagus seems a stretch IMO, as the only real candidate would be Gymnogeophagus rhabdotus but it appears, at least to me, to be a different species.

IMO, the best way to get a closer/exact ID, meristic data needs to be taken. Since this is the only fish i have of this at the moment (working on getting more to breed), i don't want to sacrifice it for my own curiosity. Through amplified Pictures i have gathered some rough ray counts, and a rough LL scale count.

I will post them along with pics used once i get a chance.
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Re: Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby RayQ » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:25 pm

I would say that this fish could possibly be one of the Gymnogephagus ex meridionalis group, the head shape is very reminiscent of them. I'll see if I can find some Gymno. "norte" pics that I have here, they are more colorful, but, the head shape will be evident.

Ray

***look at my avatar - Gymno "norte" about 10 cm fish
Ya . . . I'm from Winnipeg, so what? ;)
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Re: Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby RayQ » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:43 pm

Here is the same fish - profile shot. one of the MANY geographic variations of this Gymno type. . . .

Image
(sorry for the poor quality photo)
Ya . . . I'm from Winnipeg, so what? ;)
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Re: Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby Mack Emmons » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:26 am

From my photos, here is the meristic data i gathered. Its not an accurate way of counting them, but its better than nothing.

Dorsal XV/10
Anal III/~9
Pectoral 13
Lateral line Scale Count 26-30 (was difficult to count because of photo quality.

Here are the photos i used to get these numbers:
Dorsal - Easily can count the hard ray spines
Image

Another Dorsal from different angle
Image

Rear end of dorsal - you can count soft fin rays here
Image

Pectoral
Image

Lateral Line - I did my best to outline the lateral line so it was easier to see.
Image

I forgot to adjust a pic for the anal fin. oh well. You get the idea.

According to the information on Geophagus brasiliensis i have, this data falls within the range of G. brasiliensis. But thats not to say that is what it is. I can't rule other things out without knowing the data of those species. Does anyone have the data for Gymnogeophagus meridionalis, G. rhabdotus. And also the data for Geophagus iporangensis, and G. itapicuruensis. And for anything else this could possibly be.

EDIT: was looking at more pics of geophagus, possibly Geophagus obscurus? It is very similar and has the dark blotches located under the dorsal as seen in my first set of pics.
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Re: Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby Dutch Dude » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:20 pm

Sorry it took so long for me to reply. Richard,....you found the pics we discussed abouth a year ago! Realy nice fish and those are indeed to specie Sao Paulo that were described in a German magazine (Datz). I send you the link remember and did some (poor) translation, haha!

To the OP,....the fish doesn't look to me like Gymno's dough. Gymno's seem to have much more iridescent and color on their body. They do have some tings in common with the Bahia red. You wrote the fish had some red on their cheeks and I looked at the pic again. Thats exactly like mine started to color up. It begins with a beige darkening on the snout and some orange and purple cheeks and gil plate. Later on the body color changes to yellowish/beige and the snout starts to color up to red/purple. The shape of the head is also sharper as "common" Brasiliensis. I think they are Bahia red.

Here a link to a profile of Bahia red http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=456 This is my adult (still young) male at the size of abouth 10 inch. He did grow to just over 11 inch when I sold him and at that point he was still slowely growing.
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Re: Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby DRE » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:29 am

Has there been any more clarity into naming of
Geophagus sp. Sao Paolo
or
Geophagus sp. San Franscisco?

own name or Brasielnsis morph or Gymnogeophagus morph?
Discovery consists of looking at the same thing as everyone else and thinking something different
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Re: Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby dogofwar » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:05 am

Good question!

I have a breeding pair and spare female. They seem to have maxed out at about 5" for the male and slightly smaller for the female. They behave a lot more like brasiliensis than anything else...

Matt
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Re: Geophagus sp. 'Sao Paulo'

Postby Ken Davis » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:47 am

It is a Gymno of the rhabdotus group, the fish form Southern Brazil are not well know and seldom exported
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