Please ID this Geophagus species

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Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby peathenster » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:24 pm

Yet another Geophagus ID thread :lol:

I acquired a young group a few months ago from Jeff Rapps. They were labeled as G. brokopondo and collected from Lake Brokopondo. However, soon after they arrived, I noticed that they seemed to have black markings on the operculum, although it was much fainter than some other Geophagus species I've kept (e.g. G. dicrozoster and G. winemilleri). They also have the black "throat" similar to G. winemilleri, but again quite a bit fainter. I thought at the time that they were probably G. brachybranchus instead, although only G. surinamensis and G. brokopondo were found in that area (Kullander and Nijssen, 1989).

Well, as they matured over time, the operculum mark became fainter and fainter. Now it's not always visible, and seems more like a discontinuation of the blue spangle on the operculum than a actual black mark. Some other characteristics also look nearly identical to G. brokopondo as described by Kullander and Nijssen (1989).

A couple more observations:
- The two lateral bars immediately posterior of the lateral spot are very closely spaced, sometimes giving the impression of a wider but bisect bar.
- They are typical delayed mouthbrooders, and spawn on river rocks. Wiggling larvae are picked up on the third day and held by both parents.

I'm happy with whatever they are, but I do hope to be able to find out :)

When they first arrived:
Image
Image

More recent pictures:

Dominant male:
Image
Image
Dominant female:
Image
Image
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Re: Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby Piotr Koba » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:46 pm

Look at these drawings by D. Hougen:
http://www.theokaa.org/vb40/showthread. ... #post74173
For both, tail fin colouration, and black stripes on flanks, they are G. brokopondo. The only confusing part is the operculum mark. But, from what you wrote it might have been overlooked by K & N when describing adult fish. Still, I'm not expert. :)
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Re: Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby peathenster » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:58 pm

Piotr Koba wrote: The only confusing part is the operculum mark.


Thanks for the comment. You are exactly right - G. brokopondo is supposed to have "no dark markings on sides of head". I'm not too concerned about the black throat, as the branchiostegal membrane can be "whitish but duskied" in G. brokopondo.
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Re: Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby Piotr Koba » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:42 am

Anyway, as most Geophagus they are lovely looking fish. I like the reddish/copper coloured dorsal, similar to my G. cf. altifrons Alenquer.
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Re: Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby Florent » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:26 am

If you look to Geophagus megasema pictures in CRC catalog you can see that G. megasema, which is described without head marking, may have black marking on operculum depending of mood. Maybe it's the same with G. brokopondo, and description you give of your fish agrees with this hypothesis
Very interesting, please have a look on this tread : viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12977
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Re: Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby peathenster » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:53 pm

Piotr Koba wrote:Anyway, as most Geophagus they are lovely looking fish. I like the reddish/copper coloured dorsal, similar to my G. cf. altifrons Alenquer.


Thanks :)

Florent wrote:If you look to Geophagus megasema pictures in CRC catalog you can see that G. megasema, which is described without head marking, may have black marking on operculum depending of mood. Maybe it's the same with G. brokopondo, and description you give of your fish agrees with this hypothesis
Very interesting, please have a look on this tread : viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12977


I agree that they are probably G. brokopondo after all. The similarity between this group and some of the fish on the website you linked to in the other thread (http://www.agaankoy.com/category.php?cat=89) actually prompted me to post this thread. Or maybe there's a bit more diversity in Suriname... With the shift of fish export from Brazil to other regions, it would be interesting to see what else gets introduced into the hobby in the near future :)
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Re: Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby peathenster » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:33 am

Just a small update - they are doing well and have spawned multiple times. I think they've reached the adult size of ~6", which is consistent with that of G. brokopondo. The cheek mark is even less obvious now.

Most recent spawn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=305ZJnl8 ... ideo_title

Stripped some wigglers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-a1eiwG ... ideo_title
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Re: Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby Piotr Koba » Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:03 pm

Pretty parents, I like their contrasting colouration.
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Re: Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby Marge618 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:26 pm

From your pictures it is easy to see why you like these fish. Their colors are vibrant. :D
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Re: Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby peathenster » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:30 am

Piotr Koba wrote:Pretty parents, I like their contrasting colouration.


Marge618 wrote:From your pictures it is easy to see why you like these fish. Their colors are vibrant. :D


Thanks :) I stripped fry 4 days ago and they became free swimming as of this morning. I also discovered yesterday that one pair were holding fry and another pare were guarding eggs. Rabbits!
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Re: Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby Bas Pels » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:41 am

peathenster wrote: I stripped fry 4 days ago and
:shock:

what a shame

stripping fry is firstly very stressfull for the parents, but secondly, the fry is denied parental care they need badly in order to be able to hold frey themselves later

If somebody would offer me stripped fish, I might take the water, but not the fish. Stripped fry is worse than worthless

As you wrote, the fish reproduce regularly and if this time the fry don't make it, they will make it next time. No worries, in a while you have more fry than ytou would want - because you keep them in good conditions
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Re: Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby newworldsss » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:40 am

"but secondly, the fry is denied parental care they need badly in order to be able to hold frey themselves later" thats a myth i stripped south american and africans raised them up and they raised fry themselves without stripping....
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Re: Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby peathenster » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:08 am

Bas Pels wrote:
peathenster wrote: I stripped fry 4 days ago and
:shock:

what a shame

stripping fry is firstly very stressfull for the parents, but secondly, the fry is denied parental care they need badly in order to be able to hold frey themselves later

If somebody would offer me stripped fish, I might take the water, but not the fish. Stripped fry is worse than worthless

As you wrote, the fish reproduce regularly and if this time the fry don't make it, they will make it next time. No worries, in a while you have more fry than ytou would want - because you keep them in good conditions


Could you please reconsider Mr. Pels? Please? Take some fry....just tell me what I have to do...

newworldsss wrote: thats a myth i stripped south american and africans raised them up and they raised fry themselves without stripping....


I would generally agree with this. I usually leave fry with the parents for 30-45 days until the parents are ready to breed again, but I have also removed fry early on occasion, especially when they are in community tanks. Didn't notice a big difference. Stripped fry grew up, bred, and held their own fry just fine.

Here are a series of videos of my Geophagus sp. orange head Tapajos breeding:
New born http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuDFnPEaPyQ
Day 11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDYFZ2UizMY
Day 17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GHz5f3TXt8
Last edited by peathenster on Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby peathenster » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:13 am

Moved a holding pair to a nursery last night. Nice and easy. They released fry today. Fairly typical delayed mouth brooder behavior.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm0slNOnbNo

I think this is about all I can learn about this species for now :)
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Re: Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby peathenster » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:25 am

Fry are growing nicely (sorry for the poor picture) :) I'm really curious to see when the operculum marks show up.

Unfortunately, according to Mr. Pels, these are going to be some worthless dumb fish that don't know how to mouth brood their young :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Image
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Re: Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby dogofwar » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:50 am

There was a similar - really negative - sentiment expressed about stripping in a thread about Tropheus.

Wanting to understand if I had unwittingly become some sort of immoral, rogue fishkeeper...I started a survey on ECC to gauge folks perspectives on this topic: http://forums.eastcoastcichlids.org/sho ... php?t=9496

I don't have moral issues with stripping fish 55 77.46%
I'm against stripping fish except in extreme circumstances 4 5.63%
I have no opinion on the matter 12 16.90%

After over 70 responses, only a very small minority view stripping fish as something that they're against.

Maybe views are different in Europe...but not here...

Matt
www.capitalcichlids.org
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Re: Please ID this Geophagus species

Postby peathenster » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:59 am

That's an interesting survey Matt!

I don't think Mr. Pels was talking about moral issues. He said stripped fry won't mouth brood. I have raised stripped fry to adults, and they are breeding and mouth brooding just fine. Maybe things are different in Mr. Pels' fish room :lol:

To be clear, I don't care if the fry are "worth" anything at all. It's rewarding enough for me to establish wild fish and have them breed in my tanks. These fry will be distributed among friends and fellow Geo lovers :)
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