curing bloat?

[ewok]

hi i have a few cichlids that i am trying to cure for bloat. so far i've tried the following:

- clout
- prazi and metro
- epsom salt

raising temperatures to 86F. doing 33% water changes each day.
nothing seems to work

any other ideas?

[Rick Thibert]

I've never known a fish with advanced bloat to survive, I'm sorry to say!

You seem to have all the tools at the ready and are doing everything right............... I've actually tried something rather extreme myself and it seemed to help a bit...................... I do massive daily water changes with cold water, to the point where it begins to stress the fish out a bit................. my thinking is that you're removing any waterborne pathogens, bacteria or parasites (depending on which theory on the cause of bloat you subscribe to). My thinking is that you are potentially damaging these nasties............. it was a last ditch effort with fish that seemed to be on a death sentence................. with the fish that were effected, I managed to save 50%.................

Are all your fish bloated or are they at different stages?? Are they all off their appetite?

You could always separate the obviously bloated fish to a hospital tank and overdose them with Metro or Clout............. Clout is better for treatment of advanced bloat. The ones that look quite well should be removed from their tank, the tank cleaned with a 100% water change............. stirring the substrate up and removing anything nasty............... the cold chlorinated water should make it safe (by killing bacteria off) for reintroduction once it's warmed up. Also, if you have the benefit of using other filtration, it would pay to clean all the media with tap water (killing all the beneficial and non-beneficial bacteria)............ hence the need for additional mature filtration................ even run the cleaned filters in the newly filled cold tank.......... I've done this once with Haitiensis and saved half then as well..............

I know this isn't to everyone's preference, but, it seemed to help my fish out................ if they're knockin' on heaven's door, you've nothing to lose anyway!

But, as I said in the beginning, I've not saved any fish with advanced bloat!

BC

[illustrator]

Since bloat is caused by a filling of the body cavity with fluid, I once tried to drain this fluid in a bloating Ancistrus. The way you would do with a terrestrial animal, by punching a hole in the fish with a sterilized needle and gently squeezing out the excess fluid. I think that this was only speeding up it's illness and it died next day. So I would not recommend this, but I still wonder if it could have worked in an earlier stage (in combination with antibiotics - which i didn't have at that time).

[Dan Woodland]

I mention the following because you didn't mention it as a option you tried either separately or in combination with anything.

A crucial step in curing bloat, at almost any stage, is stop feeding while treating the animal! I have had great success with my fish and others using only Epsom Salts, nice clean water and no feeding.

Usually one maybe two fish have bloat at one time but you said a few, how many is that? I suspect you may have an issue causing your trouble like including: very high stress on the fish like too many fish in the tank, water quality is less than desirable, and feeding late at night to name a few...

Start a new tank, big enough for all the sick fish. Hang each fish in a net, stop feeding and try the Epsom Salts again making sure you keep the hospital tank water clean (they will excrete a lot....)

[Alex Calder]

One other note, do not increase the water temperature when treating for bloat. If anything reduce it.
This goes for fungal infections as well. Bacteria do not have a life cycle like ich does, the heat will make
them thrive.

Dan out lined the best method for bloat, Epsom salts (1 tablespoon/10gallons) and clean water.
You can choose to add aquarium salt ( 1 tablespoon/10 gallons) to aid against secondary infection.
In addition to this you can try clout or jungle parasite tabs.

If you are getting fish with bloat you need to review their diet and the water quality, high nitrates
will ruin the immune system and damage internal organs over time. Raw vegetables are a good
dietary supplement once or twice a week, avoid spinach. Don't blanch them (except carrots) because
you will break down the natural fiber which is the whole reason for feeding veggies.

Many people consider my feeding tactics cruel. My Julies eat Romain lettuce or peas once a week.
They get nothing else until the veggies are gone, they ahave learned to eat a 16 inch Romain leaf
in two days. The first time they didn't touch it until day 3.

[ewok]

hi there, thanks all for the tips. i suspect water quality to be the major issue.

alex - you mention lowering the water temperature?? everything i have read so far indicates that you should raise it...

[Dan Woodland]

hi there, thanks all for the tips. i suspect water quality to be the major issue.

alex - you mention lowering the water temperature?? everything i have read so far indicates that you should raise it...

Keep your temperature around 72-76 I think higher temperatures would only add stress to an already stressful situation for your fish.

Recently I helped another aquarist cure a female Herichthys labridens that had been afflicted for a long time. You need to be patient they didn't get sick over night and they won't be cured over night.

[Alex Odesit]

That's a very important topic for tropical fish lovers, very nice to see experts to chime in, may be we can get to the point what actually works for most and best.
I am myself, for last month or so battle bloat in 2 of my tanks, 210 gal and 90 gal.
It's starts from small Thor Helleri collony I got, and then spread to some other fish, just recently it's effected my huge (11") Rocio in second, larger tank, my mistake, I use the same Python hose for the frequent water change...
I am not sure,either I got infected fish, or they get sick after feedings with frozen Brine shrimp. I have had heard from respectable cichlids keepers that it's may be the case.
Anyways, I did use 40% daily water change and Epsom salt for several weeks and it do nothing to my 5 out of 11 juvenile Helleri who die one after another one. What interesting, they never been sick at the same time, it's seems like one replace another one on the death row.
No other fish in my 340 litters tank been effected during all of this time.Livebearers, such a P.Kykesia, wild swords, plattys, number of tetras, Red tail sharks, Kissing gouramis, American flag fish and some other perfectly healthy for last 2 month. I believe the reason Thor Helleri effected first is that they spend most of the time, sifting through the sand and pick the nastys more then other..
4 days ago, I start using Metranodozole, it did help me years ago, with another case of bloat, but unfortunately I never been able to safe any of Thorichtys species with it. Lets see if I can do it now.
I change 40% water daily plus vacuum the sand/gravel, plus daily doze of Metro per instructions.
I treat Rocio with only Epson salt, start 3 days ago, when I see first symptoms.
If I am successful, I will update this thread.
Water temp in both tanks around 74-76 F.
I feed my fish very minimum, during the treatment, or not at all.
Alex

[ewok]

hmmm the temperature thing is what is really bothering me, because it goes against everything i understand about medicating fish!

in any case, my fish are two beani that i am trying to cure... the female has had bloat for over a month now, and the male got bloat around 2 weeks ago. i am keeping them in a bare bottom tank with just sponge filters. they are separated. i really don't know what to do anymore, as i have used epsom salt, metro, prazi, clout and nothing seems to work. they just have this white stringy poop coming out...

i am doing 33% water changes using tap water. i am not feeding them either.

[Alex Odesit]

hmmm the temperature thing is what is really bothering me, because it goes against everything i understand about medicating fish!

in any case, my fish are two beani that i am trying to cure... the female has had bloat for over a month now, and the male got bloat around 2 weeks ago. i am keeping them in a bare bottom tank with just sponge filters. they are separated. i really don't know what to do anymore, as i have used epsom salt, metro, prazi, clout and nothing seems to work. they just have this white stringy poop coming out...

i am doing 33% water changes using tap water. i am not feeding them either.

Do you think it's possible, that fish is also stress out to be in the bare tank for such a while?
May be it's a good idea to provide some hiding places, little light, etc? I am not sure, just guessing...
And yeah man, Beani is a master piece, hope you can get them back in shape, are you in States? I want Beani
As for the water temp, I am keeping low, because most of my fish is more comfortable in temp close to 74-76 F, so I don't want to stress them even more keep it too warm.
Besides, like many others pointed above, higher temp will make nastys reproduce even more....

[duanest]

In referenence to the beani, does the area in which they originate go through a seasonal temp fluctuation (a cold spell)?
I remember in Dan's article in Cichlid News, his beani arrived almost frozen, and revived nicely.

I find bloat in some cases has a temp/stress trigger. My haitiensus fry would boat almost immediately if temp drops from 80s into the high 70s.
But on the other side.
My Gymnogeophagus will bloat if temp rises to fast from 60s into the 70s.
Although we may think of cichlids as "tropical", especially when dealing with cichlids from northern Mexico like beani, and Gymnos from Uruguay, tropical may have slightly different meaning, and could the fishes needs possibly be quite different?

[Dan Woodland]

hmmm the temperature thing is what is really bothering me, because it goes against everything i understand about medicating fish!

True, for some issues/medications but if your fish actually have bloat and not something else as I mentioned you do not want to raise the water temperature.

in any case, my fish are two beani that i am trying to cure... the female has had bloat for over a month now, and the male got bloat around 2 weeks ago. i am keeping them in a bare bottom tank with just sponge filters. they are separated. i really don't know what to do anymore, as i have used epsom salt, metro, prazi, clout and nothing seems to work. they just have this white stringy poop coming out...

i am doing 33% water changes using tap water. i am not feeding them either.

C. beani are a different story. Your diet can be causing a continuing problem even though they may be getting better from the treatment you are providing.
Firstly, I stopped all "bloat" related issue by not feeding handfuls of food late in the day then turning off the tank lights. Think about it how good do you feel going to bed directly after a big meal.
Second, a varied diet including something like frozen Krill will help.
Third, make sure your water is very good. They seem susceptible to more issues if water quality falls.
Fourth, FEED LESS!!!!!! We feed our fish way to much!!!

Remember all fish don’t react to the same stimulus in the same way and a “cure” for one fish may not work with others.

What Epsom Salt mixture are you using to treat them? Are you treating with other meds at the same time? You need to be careful not to create a “toxic soup”. Make sure one medication has been cleared out of the tank before starting a new one.

PS. The ultimate goal here is to avaoid "bloat" not have to find a cure for it....

Post some pictures of these fish....

[Alex Odesit]

In referenence to the beani, does the area in which they originate go through a seasonal temp fluctuation (a cold spell)?
I remember in Dan's article in Cichlid News, his beani arrived almost frozen, and revived nicely.

I find bloat in some cases has a temp/stress trigger. My haitiensus fry would boat almost immediately if temp drops from 80s into the high 70s.
But on the other side.
My Gymnogeophagus will bloat if temp rises to fast from 60s into the 70s.
Although we may think of cichlids as "tropical", especially when dealing with cichlids from northern Mexico like beani, and Gymnos from Uruguay, tropical may have slightly different meaning, and could the fishes needs possibly be quite different?

Hmm, could be this is the issue with my Helleri's? May be I keep them too cold (74F most of the time), but the person I got from, kept at 76 F. I did read numerous of the time that Thor Helleri needs water temp in that range.
Also mine didn't bloat that fast after I got them, it took at least a month or so...

[duanest]

Seems to me, because fry (the time just after leaving parents) may spend a majority time hiding in the shallows near shore, where temps may higher than in deeper areas with less flow, because of sun penetration, require more warmth.
At least I find this with my haitiensus. The adults have no problem with a constant temp of say 78'F, but the fry are a totally different story.
Because this is a semi-untested theory, maybe a few collectors on the site could shed some light on their experience.
I came upon this conclusion a couple years ago in the Caribbean, when I would see "standing" fresh/brackish, or (for that matter) any un-flowing water, I'd stick my finger in, just out of curiosity, and usually found that water to be almost hot.
This was not the case however, in rivers a few years earlier in Costa Rica, where the water always felt a bit cool.

[Dan Woodland]

Seems to me, because fry (the time just after leaving parents) may spend a majority time hiding in the shallows near shore, where temps may higher than in deeper areas with less flow, because of sun penetration, require more warmth.
At least I find this with my haitiensus. The adults have no problem with a constant temp of say 78'F, but the fry are a totally different story.
Because this is a semi-untested theory, maybe a few collectors on the site could shed some light on their experience.
I came upon this conclusion a couple years ago in the Caribbean, when I would see "standing" fresh/brackish, or (for that matter) any un-flowing water, I'd stick my finger in, just out of curiosity, and usually found that water to be almost hot.
This was not the case however, in rivers a few years earlier in Costa Rica, where the water always felt a bit cool.

Fry, not under parental care, usually stay within the rocks or river debris in deeper water during the day moving into the shallows/rivers edge at night to avoid predators as evidenced by my observations and night collecting.

Each time I've taken a temperature reading in a river it's been at the surface, exposed to the sun and it's almost always, the vast majority of the time, been between 68 and 76 degrees at one time or another. Obviously temperatures change and fish move about the rivers but my observations have shown fish thriving in the 68 and 76 temperature range. To spend any time in a river at this temperature a human must wear a wet suit or be one hot blooded dude.

I feel the general conception that "tropical fish", including Cichlids, must be kept at higher temperatures (80 or more) is wrong. I've had great success keeping all my tanks from the mid 60s in the winter (mostly for south Americans) and 72-76 degrees year round for most Central American and Mexican fishes (yes including live bearers and tetras). As a matter of fact sometimes even the Central Americans are kept at the same temperatures as the South Americans. Obviously, there are exceptions to “my rule” like Symphysodons sp. and Herichthys labridens "yellow". Those species will breed and live at any temperature but they prefer it warmer and show better breeding colors at warmer temperatures.

Another discussion on temperatures.....http://forum.aquamojo.com/index.php?showtopic=11598

[Alex Odesit]

I can add from my own experience being in several Mexican Cenote at Rivera Maya in December 2007 and around same time in 2006.
Cenote Escondido three kilometers south of Tulum, Cenote Manati by the sea and Cenote Garden of Eden (?spelling).
In first two of them, as Dan mention above, I had to use wet suit while diving, water were in low 70, specially Manati were water is brackish, may be even high 68' 69 F. Adult and fry of numerous fish species I observe were look happy and active, and it's includes:
Urophhalmus, Fredrischitali, Rocio's, many livebearers, etc, too many to list .
In third Cenote, Garden of Eden, water was a little warmer, mid 70' and the fish I have seen were happy as well.
Most wonderful Poecilia velifera you can imagine, healthy Rocio, R. catfish and some other livebearers I am not sure off.
I truly believe that water temp fluctuated in all these places during the year and the fish I listed above stay alive.
But I am sure that some species will need higher or lower average temp then other, and it's always nice to know fish origin, and that what I was basing on, keeping Helleri in lower temp, then I usually do, but may be too low. I may bring temp up to 76 and see if it's help.
But again honestly, my gut feeling tell me that fish bloat is not much related to the temp (in acceptable numbers) but rather to feeding and all kind off stress, including drastic temp change as well.

Alex

[ewok]

wow thank you for all the responses
here are some pictures of the beani when they were healthy. i fed the 'male' a variety of stuff ranging from freeze dry krill, NLS, hikari excel, ocean nutrition formula 2 marine pellets (spirulina pellets). the female was pretty much exclusively on hikari excel along with hikari spriluna brine shrimp.

i have taken the lower temperature advice and am now keeping them at 75F. still doing daily water changes of 25-33% adding epsom salt to replace the amount siphoned out and not feeding them. is there a difference in the epsom salt available?? i just got two big bags from target and am using it... please please tell me it's all the same stuff, or else i will feel like the biggest idiot...

i dont know about the whole issue with backgrounds and what not, because i am keeping the female in the same tank as before, and the male is in that tank now as it's been designated the quarantine tank. they are divided and have nothing but a heater and three sponge filters. the female was fine in that set up too before she had bloat... the male was in another tank with canister filtration.

male - sorry about the algae... couldnt find an algae scrapper for a while...


female

[Dan Woodland]

They have "bloat" in these pictures? They just look a bit plump.

Are these from Rio Tepic, Mexico?

[ewok]

hi dan, sorry those were pre-bloat pictures when they were plump and healthy.

these are 'rio baluarte'? i can't remember, but they are not the tepic variety.

here are some pictures i took a few minutes ago of the male. female is pretty much the same but smaller and currently without a white string attached...
a pretty sad sight...
i just did a 25% water change, but didn't add anymore epsom salt. i figure i'll just clear the tank of whatever meds and salts and just see how the fish do. they've been medicated or with salt for over 2-3 weeks depending on the fish...

[Dan Woodland]

Forgive me if this sounds heavy handed, it is not my intention.

In the "pre-bloat" pictures those fish were too fat! Plump bellies does not mean they are healthy. Fish NEVER look like that in the wild! Fish are much more lean they never get large handfuls of food thrown in the river they simply graze all day long on tiny morsels. If you cure these fish you'll need to feed much less.

Now you may be dealing with a secondary infection if they have been suffering that long. I would increase the does of Epsom salts. If they are actively cleaning out, it looks that way in the pictures, why stop treatment?

Since N. beani occur in several rivers it would be nice to know the exact river name. These fish are a bit rare, it would be nice to know if they have a larger range than we think.