Crenicicha sp. "Iguazu Big Lips" A Better Name Than sp. "Botox"?

New cichlid species and taxonomy
Post Reply
Mark Smith
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:58 pm

Crenicicha sp. "Iguazu Big Lips" A Better Name Than sp. "Botox"?

Post by Mark Smith » Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:10 am

In, Multilocus phylogeny of Crenicichla (Teleostei: Cichlidae), with biogeography of the C. lacustris group: Species flocks as a model for sympatric speciation in rivers, Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution Volume 62, Issue 1, January 2012, Pages 46–61. This paper refers to the undescribed Crenicichla that Cichlidae.com calls C. sp. "Botox" as C. sp. "Iquazu Big Lips". This name was also being used some years before this paper came out.

My assertion is that this undescribed Crenicichla should be called "Iquazu Big Lips" rather than "Botox" until it is formally described.

User avatar
Juan Artigas
Administrator
Posts: 1418
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:37 pm
Location: San Luis Potosi, México
Contact:

Re: Crenicicha sp. "Iguazu Big Lips" A Better Name Than sp. "Botox"?

Post by Juan Artigas » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:05 am

Thank you Mark I have added the provision name C. sp. ‘Iguazú big lips’ referring to the cited paper on page 58. I noted nevertheless that the authors refer to C. sp. ‘Iguazú big lips’, C. sp. ‘Iguazú big lips 1’ and C. sp. ‘Iguazú big lips 2’ from two different localities. Unfortunately, an addendum with the localities is not available and hence we can just speculate they refer to the same species. The picture on page 58 of C. sp. ‘Iguazú big lips 2’ clearly shows C. sp 'botox'. As for the name selection, you are probably right and we should use the oldest proposed provisional name for the species, although there are no rules on this matter
Juan Miguel Artigas
Editor

The Cichlid Room Companion
http://www.cichlidae.info

Mark Smith
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:58 pm

Re: Crenicicha sp. "Iguazu Big Lips" A Better Name Than sp. "Botox"?

Post by Mark Smith » Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:09 pm

Thanks, Juan, for that clarification. I realize there are no hard and fast rules on these temporary names, but I am going on the assumption that Cichlidae.com aims to be as consistently accurate as possible, which I believe it does.

Mark Smith
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:58 pm

Re: Crenicicha sp. "Iguazu Big Lips" A Better Name Than sp. "Botox"?

Post by Mark Smith » Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:25 pm

Here is a paper published in March 2001 where this undescribed species is first shown photographically (as far as I am aware of?). The authors indicate it is a polymorphic form of C. iguassuensis, based upon the isozyme starch electrophoresis technique of their day. No temporary trade name is given in this paper.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S15 ... ci_arttext

User avatar
Juan Artigas
Administrator
Posts: 1418
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:37 pm
Location: San Luis Potosi, México
Contact:

Re: Crenicicha sp. "Iguazu Big Lips" A Better Name Than sp. "Botox"?

Post by Juan Artigas » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:41 pm

Thanks Mark great finding! I have added the record to the species bibliography. Concerning the provisional name, I see that Oliver Lucanus also referred to it as Crenicichla sp. 'Iguassu Big Lips 2'. I think for the time being and given the short time between the two provisional name proposals I will stick to Crenicichla sp . 'botox' as people otherwise would understandably wonder what is Crenicichla sp 'Iguassu Big Lips 1', as well as the confusion that can be generated by the treatment of this species as both C. sp. 'Iguassu' Big Lips' and C. sp. 'Iguassu Big Lips 2' in the same paper
Juan Miguel Artigas
Editor

The Cichlid Room Companion
http://www.cichlidae.info

Mark Smith
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:58 pm

Re: Crenicicha sp. "Iguazu Big Lips" A Better Name Than sp. "Botox"?

Post by Mark Smith » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:30 pm

Here's another paper that refers to this species, published in Sept 2007.

http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2007 ... _text.html

User avatar
Juan Artigas
Administrator
Posts: 1418
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:37 pm
Location: San Luis Potosi, México
Contact:

Re: Crenicicha sp. "Iguazu Big Lips" A Better Name Than sp. "Botox"?

Post by Juan Artigas » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:23 am

Thanks Mark, it is now in the bibliography of the species. Similar results, but again I fail to identify from the paper the big lips form between what they call Crenicichla sp . 1 and Crenicichla sp . 2
Juan Miguel Artigas
Editor

The Cichlid Room Companion
http://www.cichlidae.info

Mark Smith
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:58 pm

Re: Crenicicha sp. "Iguazu Big Lips" A Better Name Than sp. "Botox"?

Post by Mark Smith » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:47 am

Yes, I know. I would assume that C. sp. "Iguazu Big Lips 1" would correspond to the one in the 2001 paper since that was the first time this species was officially recorded in a publication, which seems to match up more precisely to what is being called "Botox"? Since then, it seems as though a similar species has been given the C sp. "Iguazu Big Lips 2" designation. Why else would it be called #2?

User avatar
Juan Artigas
Administrator
Posts: 1418
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:37 pm
Location: San Luis Potosi, México
Contact:

Re: Crenicicha sp. "Iguazu Big Lips" A Better Name Than sp. "Botox"?

Post by Juan Artigas » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:52 am

Nevertheless the picture on page 58 is labelled C. sp. ‘Iguazú big lips 2’ and clearly shows C. sp 'botox'. The so called sp 1 and sp 2 are not distinguished though
Juan Miguel Artigas
Editor

The Cichlid Room Companion
http://www.cichlidae.info

Mark Smith
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:58 pm

Re: Crenicicha sp. "Iguazu Big Lips" A Better Name Than sp. "Botox"?

Post by Mark Smith » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:01 am

Are you absolutely positive it shows "Botox"? Isn't that the reason why it is called #2 since it looks very close to #1? Just wondering...

User avatar
Juan Artigas
Administrator
Posts: 1418
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:37 pm
Location: San Luis Potosi, México
Contact:

Re: Crenicicha sp. "Iguazu Big Lips" A Better Name Than sp. "Botox"?

Post by Juan Artigas » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:08 am

I think we can never (at least me) be absolutely positive of anything. Nevertheless I would be very surprised if the species iguassu big lips 2 is not what Lucanus calls Botox. As mentioned, Lucanus also calls it iguassu big lips 2. This being said, I tend to agree from what I read on those papers it is a polymorphic species perhaps in the process of speciation
Juan Miguel Artigas
Editor

The Cichlid Room Companion
http://www.cichlidae.info

Mark Smith
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:58 pm

Re: Crenicicha sp. "Iguazu Big Lips" A Better Name Than sp. "Botox"?

Post by Mark Smith » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:46 am

Also, it is referred to as: "rio Iguazu big lips" here:

http://www.ciklid.org/artregister/artre ... hp?ID=2366

User avatar
Juan Artigas
Administrator
Posts: 1418
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:37 pm
Location: San Luis Potosi, México
Contact:

Re: Crenicicha sp. "Iguazu Big Lips" A Better Name Than sp. "Botox"?

Post by Juan Artigas » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:45 pm

Mark,

Lets not make a poll, taking nomenclature decisions democratically would go against your argument in post three of this thread. You are right in my view that for nomenclature consistency we should use the older available provisional name we have for a potential new taxa. Having the picture on Piálek et al, (2012) paper labelled as Crenicichla sp. 'iguazú big lips 2' we can satisfy that criteria. The only argument we could have against it is your own argument on the opposite sense that we can not be absolutely positive that it is the same fish as Oliver Lucanus (2012) refers to. Nevertheless, given that fact that Lucanus himself recognizes that what he talks about when proposes Crenicichla sp. 'botox' is the same that was refereed as Crenicichla sp. 'iguazú big lips 2' we can consider for the time being that he refers to the same fish and his pictures show the same species pictured by Piálek. So lets settle this matter and put time where is needed. I have changed the catchy cool name "Botox" for the boring but more descriptive, and over all precedent Crenicichla sp. 'iguazú big lips 2'. I just wish Piálek et al would not have been so confusing and point with clarity what they refer to with their proposed Crenicichla sp. 'iguazú big lips 1', Crenicichla sp. 'iguazú big lips 2' and Crenicichla sp. 'iguazú big lips'

With regards
Juan Miguel Artigas
Editor

The Cichlid Room Companion
http://www.cichlidae.info

Mark Smith
CichlidRoom Expert
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:58 pm

Re: Crenicicha sp. "Iguazu Big Lips" A Better Name Than sp. "Botox"?

Post by Mark Smith » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:23 pm

I agree with you Juan, thanks.

Post Reply

Return to “Taxonomy”