Two New Australoheros Species

New cichlid species and taxonomy

Re: Two New Australoheros Species

Postby cichla » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:25 pm

michi tobler wrote:
Rico Morgenstern wrote:All taxonomic categories are in fact artificial and may be not absolutely necessary for understanding evolutionary processes.


This is not quite correct. A "species" is a real biological entity under the biological species concept. Otherwise, you are correct...

I think species are only ''real'' (objectifiable) biological entity in the nondimensional situation (at a specific locality at a given time). However, if we add space and/or time then the species limits are not that 'clear' anymore. The delimitation of allopatric population become not uncommonly obscure. Since Darwin 'we' know that there is variation which is the source for the origin of new species. How much differences must be detected to recognize an allopatric population as a separate species?
Last edited by cichla on Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Two New Australoheros Species

Postby michi tobler » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:36 pm

That is the crux of the biological species concept, which defines a species as members of populations that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. You cannot adequately test this premise in allopatric populations. Hence, the use of other species concepts in taxonomy. Nonetheless, this species concepts regards the species as a real natural entity (and it is the only one doing so).
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Re: Two New Australoheros Species

Postby cichla » Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:39 pm

At a specific locality almost all modern 'species concepts' (there are more than two dozen serious concepts published) would recognize the same number of species. And all modern species concepts claimed to detect 'natural' entities as species. I am convinced that the so called 'Biological Species Concept' is not the only one which deals with biological units. ;-)
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Re: Two New Australoheros Species

Postby michi tobler » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:27 pm

cichla wrote:At a specific locality almost all modern 'species concepts' (there are more than two dozen serious concepts published) would recognize the same number of species. And all modern species concepts claimed to detect 'natural' entities as species. I am convinced that the so called 'Biological Species Concept' is not the only one which deals with biological units. ;-)


I disagree with two things. First, I think different species concepts precipitate in vastly different amounts of species being recognized. I think there is plenty of evidence for this even within the cichlids. Second, not all species concepts deal with the unit "species" as a natural entity (see Mayr). Sure enough, all species concepts have the goal to categorize the fauna and flora according to some criteria that can be objectively assessed. But the biological species concept is the only one that ties species delineation to a relevant evolutionary mechanism, that being reproductive isolation. Other species concepts build on that, but use indirect metrics (i.e., the phylogenetic species concept). I - coming from the perspective of somebody that studies the process of speciation - think that this is important to distinguish, as different metrics can lead to vastly different conclusions about species status. On one extreme, you have approaches purely based on phenotypic assessment, which usually completely ignore that a phenotype is actually the product of an interaction between genome and environment and does not necessarily have any implications on reproductive isolation among groups of individuals (recent Australoheros descriptions are a perfect example). On the other extreme you have species definitions purely based on genetic markers. These can provide you with very insightful historical perspectives; groups of organisms that show up as distinct genetic lineages obviously have been reproductively isolated for some time. This, however, ignores a crucial part of the biological species concept ("potentially" interbreeding) and - at least with old school methodology focusing on single markers - underestimates the potential for reticulate patterns of genetic divergence (gene flow patterns at different markers may reveal alternative patterns of divergence). So, the question is what you would like to achieve with recognizing a species. I am well aware this is a systematics related forum, hence the objective is the classification of biodiversity. I come from a slightly different angle. My objective is not what biodiversity is, but how it came to be. That's probably why I rarely have constructive things to say about how to put things into particular boxes (name certain populations one way or the other). The main reason why I somewhat lost my enthusiasm for taxonomy as a student was because it stroke me as awkward that our systematic system does not recognize the dynamic nature of biodiversity (lineages split, merge, and go extinct by myriads of mechanisms). By no means I have a constructive solution to the problem (I'm not sure anybody has so far), but I'd like to advocate that people take a broader perspective. Sometimes I get the feeling that systematics is a business of lawyers rather than biologists, and even if the biological species concept is not most practical for taxonomic purposes, it does illustrate perfectly well that it may be worth thinking about the processes creating what we are all interested in: species. Long rant... I know... but species are real... and they are not easily categorized because they are not static but dynamic entities of biodiversity...
Cheers, m
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Re: Two New Australoheros Species

Postby cichla » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:47 am

Dear Michi, dear all,
well, there is a longstanding disagreement among systematists about ''what is a species''. So, I am not surprised that we disagree in some points here in the forum too.

''Darwin (1859) maintained that species were simply well-marked varieties and that there was no discontinuity between individual variation and variation at the level of species or higher taxa. This implies that the species is fundamentally an artificial category.'' (Turner 1999). Although the title of Darwin's book is ''... the Origin of Species...“ there is no definition of the term species in it. He was not even keen on species as a taxonomic rank, because he was aware that species limits (in taxonomy) are created by man (the taxonomists) not by nature (evolution).

Nowadays, the majority of systematists used Darwin's theory of evolution as a convincing thesis. If it is true that ''nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution" (Dobzhansky 1973), then I think the taxonomic species rank should consider evolution too. But the „Biological Species Concept“ (BSC) does not. It doesnt consider neither tokogenetic nor phylogenetic relationships. ''Since representing history is of primary importance in evolutionary biology, these problems lead to the conclusion that the BSC, ... , are unacceptable. If species are to be taxa used in phylogenetic inferences, we need a history based species concept.'' (Velasco 2008).

Even Mayr (who developed and advocated the BSC) himself never gave any evidence of reproductive isolation for the species described by him. Almost all of his species taxa are distinguished only by a single or a few morphological characters states. ''... in his papers, we do not find tables full of data and measurements and quantified comparisons nor results of experiments done. In fact, we see almost none of the information on which he based his decisions.'' (Yoon 2009).

I agree with Rico that ''... evolution is a continuous process rather than a series of steps we have at least theoretically an infinite number of intermediate states between populations, species etc., so that it is, from an evolutionary point of view, impossible to say were a species 'begins'. All taxonomic categories are in fact artificial ...'' (Rico Morgenstern).

In this context I understand Rico's ''artificial'' in the sense of ''where we cut the phylogenetic tree of life'' is subjective and not in the sense of ''species'' are not real. Species are real (as the whole world, I hope), but I think (in concordance with Darwin, see above), that the ''species'' (as a taxonomic category) is not special. It is just the lowest (subspecies not counted) rank in zoological systematics.

Greetings, Ingo
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Re: Two New Australoheros Species

Postby Mark Smith » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:13 pm

Hi Rico:

Thanks for your information and link. However, I am unable to open/find this image of N. tetracanthus. Might you have a copy of this image to post here?

http://research.calacademy.org/redirect ... /index.asp


Also, not having seen the image you are directing me to makes it difficult to say much. However, the line drawing of H. nigricans does look quite distinct and does not appear to be malformed (what evidence do you have to say that N. nigicans is likely a deformed N. tetracanthus?). Again, the jaw is much more slender and not as thick and robust as in the classic N. tetracanthus, not to mention its much deeper body and deeper caudal peduncle.
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Re: Two New Australoheros Species

Postby Rico Morgenstern » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:59 am

Hi Mark
Here is the photo of the Heros nigricans type.

You can try to reach the Primary Types Imagebase from the ichthyology starting page:

http://research.calacademy.org/ichthyology/

The mouth is larger and more inclined than for instance in the H. tetracanthus latus type, but it is readily seen from the photo that the lower jaw is normally strong and not as this as on the drawing. 'Malformed' refers to the developement of the lateral line. The lower lateral line is lacking, and the scales of the upper one are arranged irregularly at one side. Furthermore, it is the only one out of 18 from that locality (see Hubbs 1920) with these peculiarities, and the morphometrics are approached by other specimens. The color pattern of Heros nigricans, shared by H. tetracanthus cinctus, corresponds to the breeding coloration of Nandopsis tetracanthus.

As noted earlier, I would not exclude that a thorough examination of N. tetracanthus from the entire range may lead to the recognition of several species, especially since the inhibition threshold for doing so is very low in these times. However, as long as there has no such work been carried out, we should follow the last revision (Hubbs 1920). To distinguish possible geographic variants for aquarium purposes, the place of origin can be added to the name N. tetracanthus.
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Re: Two New Australoheros Species

Postby Mark Smith » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:41 am

Many thanks Rico! Indeed, the mouth is not as different as in the illustration. The artist must have been smoking something to have illustrated a jaw shape very much different than in the actual fish itself. The only thing that appears to be somewhat different is the depth of the body and caudal peduncle, but with only one individual like this collected, very hard to say with certainty what is going on.
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